Higher Ed Thread

Statistical manipulation of Six Sigma was why I hated it when I tried to learn it. Seems like you could BS your way through it if necessary.

Right now my company is trying to apply the “Agile” methodology to not just software (which is what it was designed for) but to all aspects of engineering. “Fail fast, fail often” is a good motto for code but not a good model when I actually have to cut something out of metal.

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Isn’t this all middle management

They tried this during the industrial revolution… didn’t exactly go well…

It has been over a decade since I’ve done anything remotely connected to Six Sigma and even statistics in any non-general application. The methodology can make a lot of sense in high-volume manufacturing, which is what we were doing, but that doesn’t make the methodology translate to all processes at all levels of the business. I actually did use a basic statistical application in a waste removal process improvement, but otherwise I was knowingly and actively crafting Six Sigma bullshit in what I choose to characterize as good faith with my employer but bad faith with my boss.

I once worked as a consultant for a far-off, non-descript client who completely mis-interpreted the SAP implementation general concept of standardization, resulting in a horribly implemented multi-company financial structure laying at the root of the entire multi-million dollar software solution. All under the notion that “standardization” extended to having two entirely different businesses operating under the same chart of accounts.

A room full of college-educated, six figure salaries couldn’t get it right.

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For the record, I’m not shitting on college at all. Far from it. Nearly all of the most successful people I know went to college for something. Mostly for generally useful things, but not always.

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You didn’t come across that way

I like this conversation because it challenges the narrative I’ve always been fed:
I grew up with the expectation that I’d get into a high ranked uni. Amoung my friends from the Chinese American bubble I grew up in 6 went to Harvard, all of them got Ivy acceptances, most considered UCLA and USC safeties and started preping for AP chem/physics and/ or the SAT/ACT in 7th grade.

I also got VERY lucky. I was rejected by ALL the school I applied to except the one I’m attending despite not putting ANY effort into the application (literally copied and pasted my Yale app and attached a sentence saying why I wanted to do decision science). I also had NO interest in STEM at the time and it is very much as STEM school.
Turns out it was the perfect fit. Profs actually care about undergrads and I had WAY more interaction with my profs, even the highly regarded ones, than I could ever have dreamed of. Many of my classmates who DID make it into other “more prestigious” schools cannot say the same. Looking back, I probably would have been miserable at the other schools, including my dream school at the time (Columbia)

I know that my experience is by no means typical, so it’s good to hear other perspectives

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This is true, but it’s mostly just a result of the walls that you elude to. The walls may be coming down in some fields, but it’s basically impossible to get an interview for an engineering position without a 4-year engineering degree. I’m an electrical engineer and I interview a fair number of engineering students and recent graduates for internships and entry level jobs. In general they are bright, and there are certainly some that are exceptionally well qualified. But that is generally a result of things they did outside of college either in jobs or hobbies.

If there wasn’t this wall, I think there would be a lot of room for people out of highschool to get jobs in engineering related fields and become full engineers through industry experience. However, since the wall exists, people who want to become engineers accept it and get engineering degrees.

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@cyclonengineer @mnben87
I’m curious, how much of the math/physics engineers are required to take is actually used on the job?
Diff eq was a HUGE struggle for me and that was with a really good prof, weekly supplemental instruction and very extensive homework help from my friend. I couldn’t imagine studying it myself (even with free courses online), especially as a high school student

Thanks. I wasn’t trying to but I wanted to make it clear. I understand that I can be somewhat abrasive at times :slight_smile:

Relating to the subject of understanding, I admire your bilingualism. I speak a little bit of German but I haven’t spoken it even remotely well since I spent a few weeks speaking it on a hostel-hopping trip in the late 90’s. Your English far surpasses any German I ever spoke.

That’s an outstanding market commodity, by the way.

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haha :laughing: I was actually born in the US and lived there for 11 years before moving to Shanghai for HS. I am fluent in Mandarin though (speaking, reading and writing) and sometimes do translations stuff for my dad’s company.

I also took Spanish for 4 yrs in HS. Can’t speak or write but can still read it decent. Recently finished the Spanish version of the first Harry Potter book

I want to learn German in the future. Germany has always been my favourite country

It’s more understanding the topics for me than actually using them. I think engineering would be tough to learn in the job. Some techs do it, but they are usually in a narrow field, and have trouble moving around.

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Well then, I expect you’ll find the vocabulary of Deutsch to be easily-learned at bare minimum, and probably much easier than I did. The grammar was unconventional for an English speaker, but not difficult to get your head around with a bit of effort. Mandarin is an indecipherable set of sounds and images to me, so I expect you’ll manage just fine.

Before you put too much weight on anything I’ve written, please keep in mind that I only had a semester and a half of college. My brain is usually doing something like this…

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It helps if you grow up learning it. I remember being really confused when my kindergarten teacher didn’t understand mandarin :joy::joy:

I think you’re quite right about this. Imagine if an employer would re-think a scenario like this, and make it widely known that this sort of effort might get someone a job…

A person kicks ass in high school, then goes out and learns everything they can about applied industrial, mechanical or a similar field of engineering at the library and augments that with well-chosen YouTube content and other means of hive-minding high-level knowledge formerly kept behind the gates of college tuition and traditions. However you get it done, you get it done and demonstrate some acceptable levels of competency, potential and initiative.

Boom, that’s your in. Let’s get you a job doing something useful and teach you the rest along the way.

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@anna_5588
I second what @mnben87 says here. It also depends a lot on what you are doing. In my previous job I worked a lot solving problems on the production floor (F-15 and F-18) where a knowledge of how things play together and materials was really important. It was my job there to put the science behind what the technicians were telling me and get to the root cause of problems.
My current job I rely on my math knowledge a bit more. Not that I solve diff eq everyday, but I work with a lot of modeling software that solves the equations. I have to know how the math behind the model is working in order to make it function correctly.
Oddly one thing they don’t teach in engineering school is how to read a drawing. I learned that on the job mostly after some light exposure in high school.

I’ve sometimes found myself astounded when arguing with lazy engineers about basic form/fit/function concepts and the importance of revision maintenance in the master data records. I have selfish purchasing reasons for this now, but there are many other concerns that are solved by the pedantic world of strict ERP master data maintenance with a heavy hand for non-compliance.

Since we can’t have these foolish engineers all rounded up and re-educated yet, we’ll need to threaten them through some other means for the time being.

Or just do what my company has been doing and promoting useless people to management. That’s sure to work in the long run.

This is a great thread idea. Thanks, anna.

Full Disclaimer: I am biased because I teach at a graduate level health program.

Ivy League schools are overrated. People are only paying for the prestige of the name; the education quality can be much lower than that of cheaper schools. The professors at Ive League schools may be Nobel laureates, but they probably can’t teach their way out of a paper bag (and I doubt any of them would host a coffee hour to chat with students). A professor’s prestige (and promotion rate for some stupid reason) is tied to research publications instead of teaching ability. A professor who can present complex ideas at the level the audience can understand is worth their weight in gold.

The majority of classes in higher education are based on memorization because it’s easier. It’s unfortunate, but it’s true. Simple “regurgitate my lecture” questions can be written much faster than complex applications with higher level thinking. It takes me about an hour to write a decent multiple choice question, so I can understand the temptation to just use the easy way when making a 50 item test. Many schools are moving to include more higher level, application style assignments, but it takes a ton of work to create them.

Every program should have a requirement to take some classes outside your major. Stats is a good idea, languages are very useful, and art classes can be relaxing. Many successful people were known to pick up an instrument when they were stuck on a problem, and playing helped them work through it. I went to a liberal arts school and took lots of classes outside my degree. These classes exposed me to different ways of thinking and challenged some pre-existing ideas of mine.

Intern programs are essential. You can learn a ton of “hands on” useful stuff outside the classroom if you work with a company inside your field of interest during college.

I could go on and on with this topic.

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I think you’re underestimating the various paradigm shifts that can take place under certain styles of leadership. Savvy companies understand how to put their players on the field, not to mention keeping the bullpen full of relief pitchers.

Market trends dictate market reactions, and the synergies we’re pursuing must be our North Star. This is an all-in project for the entire team, and we don’t want to drop the ball or be seen as passing the buck. We all need to lead from the front, and keep a customer-driven focus on our visions and values.

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I get that, but I work for a government contractor where a lot of that is dictated more by quotas and whatnot (literally, a certain percent of our supply base has to come from minority and veteran owned companies regardless of if they make the best product or not).
Edit: pulled this from Think again by adam Grant and it sums up my company in its current state. Start at the last paragraph in the first pic