T Nation

High T, FSH, SHBG, Low E2 No Libido. My Lab Results (pellets)

Wow…that was way more brutal than I thought it would be. Not sure why I expected rice grains into a small nick into the tissue.

It doesn’t feel like that; although that is probably indicative of the actual treatment I had, it doesn’t feel that “rough” when it is happening. My doctor described the pain as similar to someone kicking you in the ass with their knee. I would agree that is a good description. However, it didn’t effect my sitting in the car, or office, or other things I needed to do.

And yes, the pellets are just slightly larger than rice grains. One of the side effects is extrusion – when the pellets push out through the skin. Supposedly, the “hard pushing” you see is to make sure that the pellets don’t try to back out on their own.

I’m glad I didn’t watch the video before my first insertion. :slight_smile:

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Proviron is LEGAL where I am outside of the usa and I have switched to proviron from danazol today.

I found this article elsewhere and I thought it was so informative I would add it:

"Mesterolone is an orally active, 1-methylated DHT. Like Masteron , but then actually delivered in an oral fashion. DHT is the conversion product of testosterone at the 5-alpha-reductase enzyme, the result being a hormone that is 3 to 4 times as androgenic and is structurally incapable of forming estrogen. One would imagine then that mesterolone would be a perfect drug to enhance strength and add small but completely lean gains to the frame. Unfortunately there is a control mechanism for DHT in the human body. When levels get too high, the 3alpha hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzyme converts it to a mostly inactive compound known as 3-alpha (5-alpha-androstan-3alpha,17beta-diol), a prohormone if you will. It can equally convert back to DHT by way of the same enzyme when low levels of DHT are detected. But it means that unless one uses ridiculously high amounts, most of what is administered is quite useless at the height of the androgen receptor in muscle tissue and thus mesterolone is not particularly suited, if at all, to promote muscle hypertrophy.

Proviron has four distinct uses in the world of bodybuilding. The first being the result of its structure. It is 5-alpha reduced and not capable of forming estrogen, yet it nonetheless has a much higher affinity for the aromatase enzyme (which converts testosterone to estrogen) than testosterone does. That means in administering it with testosterone or another aromatizable compound, it prevents estrogen build-up because it binds to the aromatase enzyme very strongly, thereby preventing these steroids from interacting with it and forming estrogen. So Mesterolone use has the extreme benefit of reducing estrogenic side-effects and water retention noted with other steroids, and as such still help to provide mostly lean gains. Its also been suggested that it may actually downgrade the actual estrogen receptor making it doubly effective at reducing circulating estrogen levels.

The second use is in enhancing the potency of testosterone. Testosterone in the body at normal physiological levels is mostly inactive. As much as 97 or 98 percent of testosterone in that amount is bound to sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) and albumin, two proteins. In such a form testosterone is mostly inactive. But as with the aromatase enzyme, DHT has a higher affinity for these proteins than testosterone does, so when administered simultaneously the mesterolone will attach to the SHBG and albumin, leaving larger amounts of free testosterone to mediate anabolic activities such as protein synthesis. Another way in which it helps to increase gains. Its also another part of the equation that makes it ineffective on its own, as binding to these proteins too, would render it a non-issue at the androgen receptor.

Thirdly, mesterolone is added in pre-contest phases to increase a distinct hardness and muscle density. Probably due to its reduction in circulating estrogen, perhaps due to the downregulating of the estrogen receptor in muscle tissue, it decreases the total water build-up of the body giving its user a much leaner look, and a visual effect of possessing “harder” muscles with more cuts and striations. Proviron is often used as a last-minute secret by a lot of bodybuilders and both actors and models have used it time and again to deliver top shape day in day out, when needed. Like the other methylated DHT compound, drostanolone, mesterolone is particularly potent in achieving this feat.

Lastly Proviron is used during a cycle of certain hormones such as nandrolone , with a distinct lack of androgenic nature, or perhaps 5-alpha reduced hormones that don’t have the same affinities as DHT does. Such compounds, thinking of trenbolone , nandrolone and such in particular, have been known to decrease libido. Limiting the athlete to perform sexually being the logical result. DHT plays a key role in this process and is therefore administered in conjunction with such steroids to ease or relieve this annoying side-effect. Proviron is also commonly prescribed by doctors to people with low levels of testosterone , or patients with chronic impotence. Its not perceived as a powerful anabolic, but it gets the job done equally well if not better than other anabolic steroids making it a favorite in medical practices due to its lower chance of abuse.

Mesterolone is generally well liked nonetheless as it delivers very few side-effects in men. In high doses it can cause some virilization symptoms in women. But because of the high level of deactivation and pre-destination in the system (albumin, SHBG, 3bHSD, aromatase) quite a lot of it, if not all simply never reaches the androgen receptor where it would cause anabolic effects, but also side-effects. So its relatively safe. Doses between 25 and 250 mg per day are used with no adverse effects. 50 mg per day is usually sufficient to be effective in each of the four cases we mentioned up above, so going higher really isn’t necessary. Unlike what some suggest or believe, its not advised that Proviron be used when not used in conjunction with another steroid , as it too is quite suppressive of natural testosterone, leading to all sorts of future complications upon discontinuation. Ranging from loss of libido or erectile dysfunction all the way up to infertility. One would not be aware of such dangers because Proviron fulfills most of the functions of normal levels of testosterone.

Stacking and Use:

Mesterolone is an oral alkylated steroid. If used primarily as an anti-aromatase drug, using it throughout a longer cycle (10-12 weeks) of injectables may elevate liver values a little bit, though much, much less than one would expect with a 17-alpha-alkylated steroid. Eventhough instead of inhibiting gains, mesterolone may actually contribute to gains. So that’s a bit of a shame. Its not quite as toxic since its not alkylated in the same fashion, but at the 1 position, which reduces hepatic breakdown, but not like 17-alpha alkylation. The reason for the change of position I assume, is because alkylating at the 17-alpha position has been shown to reduce affinity for sex hormone binding proteins. This would in turn decrease its ability to free testosterone. Nonetheless the delivery rate is quite good. Its taken daily in 50-100 mg doses.

The best thing to stack it with is testosterone of course. Its most easily bound to SHBG and albumin, and deactivated for up to 98%. Since the DHT can compete for these structures with higher affinity it would naturally lead to a higher yield of whatever testosterone product you stacked it with. Since DHT levels are notably higher now there is also more stimulation of the androgen receptor causing more strength gains, and because of its affinity for aromatase the overall estrogen level decreases as well. This has as a result that gains are leaner, and once again the overall testosterone yield is increased as less I converted at the aromatase enzyme.

It’s of course used in other stacks with products such as methandrostenolone , boldenone and nandrolone to reduce estrogenic activity and increase muscle hardness. The addition of proviron makes boldenone a dead lock for a cutting stack and for some may even make it possible to use nandrolone while cutting, although the use of Winstrol or a receptor antagonist in conjunction is wishful as well. The benefit of adding it to a nandrolone stack is that it may also help you reduce the decrease in libido suffered from nandrolone, since the latter is mostly deactivated by 5-alpha reductase, an enzyme that makes other hormones more androgenic."

I have blood work and will post it shortly.

PS: proviron … "Originally developed as a drug for treating depression in men, " … !!

I stopped Danazol and started Proviron 25mg today. Based on all the reading, it looks like I should take 25mg am and 25mg pm. For at least the first week, I plan on 25mg per day only.

Blood Work 5-28-18
Albumin 4.83 g/dL (3.5-5.2)
Testosterone 1093 ng/dL (193-740)
Free Testosterone 15.4 ng/dL (5.33-12.59)
SHBG 69.34 nmol/L (20.6-76.7)
Free Testosterone Percent: 1.4% (1.23-2.59)

I am away from the doctor for three or more months. I know my T will continue to drop, but am willing to experiment to get a feel for how much I lose each month. My body is absorbing the BioTE pellets like they were tictacs.

Quick Summary:
March 3, pellet insertion

3-29-18 (?) blood work: T at 1411; shbg at 97.2; free t at 1.13%
4-13-18 booster pellet insertion; 4-15-18 started danazol
4-28-18 blood work: T at 1441; shbg 60.4; free t at 1.74%
5-28-18 blood work: T at 1093; shbg 69.34; free t at 1.4% (25% drop in T at 2 months)
shbg increased.

Libido and an attentive penis have not returned.

My appetite has gone berserk. I want to eat huge meals multiple times per day, which is both unusual, and not what I wanted.

Quick Summary:

3-3-18 pellet insertion
3-29-18 (?) blood work: T at 1411; shbg at 97.2; free t at 1.13%
4-13-18 booster pellet insertion; 4-15-18 started danazol
4-28-18 blood work: T at 1441; shbg 60.4; free t at 1.74%
5-28-18 blood work: T at 1093; shbg 69.34; free t at 1.4% (25% drop in T at 2 months)
shbg increased. Started proviron; stopped danazol.
6-25-18 blood work: T at 762; shbg 101.1; free t at .9% (50% drop in T at 3 months)
shbg increased. Stopped proviron; started danazol at 2 caps per day.

I knew I would feel like shit during this experiment. And I do … (just in case that makes anyone happy!). Plus … 100mg Viagra does NOTHING.

I haven’t given up on Proviron, but I think my overall SHBG is too high for it. I think guys with elevated (but lower) SHBG might do well. The reviews of it were outstanding.

I have decided to restart danazol at an increased dosage. I will start with 2 caps, although I read where “serious” cases should start at 3 caps for 90 days.

I wondered about proviron and danazol at the same time, but I did not find ANY references to the two drugs being used simultaneously.

Blood Work 6-25-18
Albumin 4.79 g/dL (3.5-5.2)
Testosterone 762 ng/dL (193-740)
Free Testosterone 7.15 ng/dL (5.33-12.59)
SHBG 101.1 nmol/L (20.6-76.7)
Free Testosterone Percent: 0.9% (1.23-2.59)
Estradiol (NON-sensitive): 28.8 pg/mL (25.8-60.7)

I expected my SHBG to rise, but not THAT much. Proviron supposedly doesn’t lower the actual number, but opens a binding site to free Testosterone. That didn’t work for me. My highest ever SHBG was 104, and that was NO meds, NO Test, NO supplements or vitamins, NOTHING.

This is my second highest SHBG EVER, and I’m still taking a ridiculous amount of medicine and supplements. Seeing the SHBG climb this high was a real disappointment. It appears that 1 danazol capsule brought SHBG down during the first trial by 30 points (I was at 97.2 immediately before Danazol). Now I will test 2 capsules daily and see if I made any progress.

I will continue to update on this journey.

Nothing has changed in the past two weeks. As of today, I have not noticed any changes due to the increased dosage of Danazol.

However, because of the change in dosage, I am running out of Danazol. Surprisingly, I can’t buy it anywhere but the hospital, so that required me to meet a new doctor to obtain a prescription.

I was very impressed with her answers and her willingness to both listen and read the results I have provided. Whether she can help me in any way is yet to be seen – but it is nice to find a doctor that you feel comfortable speaking with and seems excited to take on cases that are slightly out of the ordinary.

She has requested a four-day-part Saliva test. I completed this test in early 2017 but agreed to take it again if she thinks it will help her to diagnose. She is intrigued at what “inflammation” in my body is stimulating the SHBG. She wants to have another look at the Adrenals.

She also refilled my Danazol as I requested. I still won’t see my main US doctor for one month.

I continue to use this thread as a “diary” of my journey. When there are any changes, I add them to the thread with as much information as I have at the time.

Quick Summary:

3-3-18 pellet insertion
3-29-18 (?) blood work: T at 1411; shbg at 97.2; free t at 1.13%
4-13-18 booster pellet insertion; 4-15-18 started danazol
4-28-18 blood work: T at 1441; shbg 60.4; free t at 1.74%
5-28-18 blood work: T at 1093; shbg 69.34; free t at 1.4% (25% drop in T at 2 months) shbg increased. Started proviron; stopped danazol.
6-25-18 blood work: T at 762; shbg 101.1; free t at .9% (50% drop in T at 3 months) shbg increased. Stopped proviron; started danazol at 2 caps per day.
7-30-18 blood work: T at 444; shbg 33.2; free t at 1.9; (70% drop in T at 4 months)

Another way to look at this: Each month I have dropped 25-40% in testosterone from previous month) using pellets.

This month’s blood results are the most puzzling so far.

To keep everything documented here, I underwent a “hemorrhoid sclerotherapy”. It was 66% effective, but I will need to repeat it in a few months. There is no documented tie between hemorrhoids and SHBG, but I list it anyway.

After last month’s “failure” of proviron, I have been taking 100mg per day of Danazol after speaking with my USA doctor.

However, I decided to try something else, but didn’t inform my doctor. For the past three weeks, I have been adding an additional 50mg Danazol every other day, plus proviron EVERY day.

I was quite horny, especially for the first few days. But it still took a 100mg Viagra to run the race. In the last 4-5 days before the blood work was done, I was taking 150mg Viagra to get the job done. That is the strangest part of the experiment.

Blood Work 7-30-18
Albumin 4.88 g/dL (3.5-5.2)
Testosterone 444 ng/dL (193-740)
Free Testosterone 8.55 ng/dL (5.33-12.59)
SHBG 33.20 nmol/L (20.6-76.7)
Free Testosterone Percent: 1.9% (1.23-2.59)
(I forgot to test Estrogen)

My SHBG dropped to 33.2 from 101.1! That is amazing.

My T-level of 444 is the lowest T-level in my life - and I feel it.

I am equally shocked at the Free T Percentage of 1.9%. That is the highest since I have been testing (10 years). That should have provided lots of spontaneous erections, but it didn’t. I would have anticipated much better erections without Viagra with this level of free t %.

Orgasms were elusive. Sex ended out of exhaustion rather than climax.

What is my next step?

I have stopped taking danazol and will stay off for 30 days. I want to know if it returns to my insane levels as before or not.

I will be visiting my doctor for a pellet insertion. I don’t know if he will agree, but what I think needs to happen is this:

  • I felt my best when my t-level was over 1400. To account for the monthly drop of T, I would need to start off with a mega boost … how high he will let me go is still to be discussed.

  • BTW: discussion of ultra high TRT: http://compassionateoncology.org/pdfs/HDTRT9.pdf

  • After the 30 days is over, and my blood is tested again, I will return to 100-150mg of Danazol per day to reduce the SHBG. I will not be using Proviron since I am in the USA. The second month will give me a chance to see what the higher dose of Danazol (ALONE) does for my shbg. This should tell me if the addition of Proviron played a part in the lowered SHBG or not.

I am really curious what my results would be when my T levels are higher – combined with the higher Dananzol dosage. That is what I hope to watch for and test.

At the end of 3 months, I will return to the doctor for another pellet boost. I think we agree that 3 months is the longest I can go without a boost.

Whether we can control the monthly drop is yet to be seen.

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@anon10035199
@jebrady03

Update posted. Tagged as requested.

That’s a huge drop! Which is why your TT took such a big hit.

Estrogen would have been vital! Your taking something that suppresses e2 (Proviron) might’ve where your problems are.

Closer to the answers thoigh. Glad for you man.

Yes, and I could kick myself for not remembering to add Estradiol to the test order.

However, I find it interesting that when I was on Proviron every day during the previous one month trial, I didn’t notice any effect on E2.

I am interested to see the results of the saliva test I took 3 weeks ago. I don’t anticipate the results to be different from the one I took in 2017.

Thanks for the comment …

by any chance do you know if peanut butter or cashews increases shbg?

@stevow7
No, I do not - but have never read that cashews were an issue.

You might have read that I was a serious Almond eater! When I determined that a potential link between SHBG and Almonds existed, I gave up my favorite nut.

I saw no change in SHBG that could be related to Almonds, but as part of my experimentation, I have avoided Almonds consumption.

thanks for the reply. altho, did you ended up on trt?

peanut butter and cashews are good.

Almonds, pistachios, and walnuts are no good for SHBG.

I found a very interesting article discussing personal experiences with SHBG, E2, SIBO and more. http://www.allthingsmale.com/community/threads/extremely-high-tt-and-shbg-feels-like-low-t.25889/

It made me review my E2 levels. They were always low; and didn’t test high ever except one odd-ball saliva test.

2016 - Low - 10.4 - 25.0 (ref: 25.8-60 NON-sensitive test)
Jan 2017 - Saliva Test - HIGH(?) - 2.8 (ref: .5-2.2)
2017 - LOW 5 - 7.8 (ref: 25.8-60 NON-sensitive test)
2017 - Urine Test: AVERAGE .21 (ref: .18-.49)
2018 - Before TRT: LOW 10.9 (ref: 25.8 - 60 NON-sensitive test)
2018 - After TRT: AVERAGE 24.6 - 28.8 (ref: 8-35 SENSITIVE TEST)

I am not able to correlate my Estrogen/Estradiol levels to how I felt or currently feel. Most TRT guys post that their sweet spot is “20-30”. But the marked increase in 2018 (from LOW to AVERAGE) doesn’t correlate to any improvements.

In the link I quoted, it was mentioned that “going to low [on Estradiol] [will cause men to not be able to] get it up taking Viagra”. That makes sense to me, and how I found Viagra wasn’t working like it should.

2017


2018

New Saliva Cortisol Test results received. Black and White results are from 1-17-17 test, while color results are from 7-13-18 test.

In 2017, one of the cortisol readings was high; In 2018, both midday and evening show elevated cortisol.

DHEAS was LOW in 2018, but normal in 2017.

From the doctor:
Regarding your lab results, you have low morning cortisol and DHEA with slightly elevated cortisol the rest of the day as well as low morning DHEA. Sub-optimal adrenal function can worsen your symptoms. So when we want to maximize the adrenal function, it means we have to do something about it by helping your adrenal glands. For example, you can take adrenal boosting extracts like ashwagandha, ginseng, cordyceps, rhodiola, black ginger, or desiccated adrenal gland extracts or even intravenous treatments.

She has also referred me to a different specialist. But her statement above suggests I add more supplements to my routine, as I have already “optimized” adrenal care over the past two years.

I am looking on Amazon now. Any comments or suggestions?

thanks for the updates travelling man. I wonder how effective proviron is at lowering shbg alone solo? I feel you dint give enough time perhaps… I can get proviron legally here in UK and i am contemplating testing it to lower my SHBG @ 72

I’ll be trying proviron + low dose clomid from next week - theory being that proviron on its own would lower total T as well as SHBG but with clomid total T will be maintained or increased and (hopefully) proviron will lower SHBG more than clomid raises it. My SHBG was 95 last test.

I’ll let you know how it goes.

@challie
If you research, you will see where post-after-post state that proviron doesn’t “lower” shbg. Instead it gives the SHBG something to bind to instead of T. In my experiment, it is possible that I didn’t give enough time – however, I don’t think that is the case in my situation. Proviron is called the “boner pill” and when it is working, you should have erections and drive that can be uncomfortable depending on dose. I did not. In the second trial, I used it with Danazol which is not documented anywhere on the web.

@hd44
Please read my previous comment about how proviron acts.

The more reading you do on proviron & erection, the more statements you will find like this:

its not just wood its insane libido.

That was one of the main reasons I tried it; and why it was so disappointing FOR ME. Remember, my hormone situation is different and I do not claim to know better than anyone else. I am only telling MY experience. I still think there is a place for me for proviron, but I haven’t hit a “sweet spot” of anything.

I had planned to stay off danazol and proviron for 30 days then do my labs. I have been doing labs every 30 days. However, I read about the half-life, and it appears 15 days off is more than enough. I go to the lab in the morning, after only 20 days since the last one, because I feel crappy, and want to start the danazol again, now that I have had my pellet insertion.

Thank you for your replies. Please share your results with me.

This study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4732450/ suggests Proviron monotherapy reduces SHBG & total testosterone therefore keeping free testosterone the same. Have a look at table 1.

“The paradoxical reduction in TT (p .012), with no change in cFT, reflects a significant reduction in SHBG due to the suppression of endogenous testosterone synthesis by this form of treatment”

However it does say SHBG drops because testosterone production drops so if testosterone was increased by another method at the same time it probably wouldn’t have the lowering effect. So my Clomid + Proviron experiment is probably doomed for failure unless the benefit of the binding preference of the Proviron is enough to free up some T.

Some other interesting points in the study. They found no correlation between symptoms of low T and total or free T levels and also no correlation between relief of those symptoms after treatment and initial total & free T levels.