T Nation

High T, FSH, SHBG, Low E2 No Libido. My Lab Results (pellets)

#180

See my previous response. :+1:t3:

1 Like
#181

Surely supplements won’t increase test if your only source of test is from the pellet… i.e. testicles have shut down.

Could it be something to do with the way the pellet releases the test?

#182

Yeah not totally sure. I dont see any LH or FSH tests following initial pellet insertion so not sure if testes are completely shut down. Based on the T levels you would assume but not entirely sure.

#183

@NH_Watts
@hd44
9-21-18 collection date

My only source of Testosterone is from pellets. The difference between 10/19/18 tests and 9/21/18 tests are the additional of Yohimbine supplement, which is not believed to cause T-increases.

As to how the pellet releases the testosterone: I can’t answer that with actual knowledge. All I can say, is that 48 hours after a pellet insertion, my body registers the full value of the pellets inserted. After three insertions, I have always experienced decreases each month - sometimes substantial decreases - which was one of the reasons for higher dosing.

24 Hour Hormone Urine Test - The Gold Standard
#184

I met with my doctor today but I didn’t have my urine test results yet. If you are interested in the 24-hour urine test from Rhein, take a look here.

Hematocrit: He didn’t feel I should worry too much as my RBC was good and he expected an increase. But he did make the suggestion of donating blood.

He was surprised to see HDL go low, but agreed with my research that Testosterone and Steroids can artificially lower this number, when none of the other reasons fit.

He wasn’t worried about LDL since it was still below 130, and I am healthy with no Diabetes, etc. Just advised to keep watching it. And spend more time with weights.

Alkaline Phosphatase: He was not sure about this one and will do some reading. It was the first time he saw this come back unusual.

Had a pellet insertion that went fine. Told him I would see him in three months but would email my urine hormone results shortly.

I am still feeling good … since 9-25-18.

1 Like
#185

Here is the results of my Urine Test.

A few things surprised me …

  1. Estradiol was mid-range; even though it had increased on the last blood tests.
  2. DHEA was crazy high! It was super high in the bloods two tests back, but I lowered my supplement and blood level shows ok. Urine level was off the chart! (I do not notice any side effects from high DHEA).
  3. Cortisone/Cortisol is normal. That is a change from previous saliva test. (Dark chocolate, probiotic, water and adrenal supplements, as well as Nitric Oxide supplements with L-Arginine might be helping)

I don’t know about the two LOW results.

My results didn’t come with a guide … but I found one online.

Vitamin & Protein Supplements - My Experiences
#186

I don’t remember who posted about proviron being unavailable, but my pharmacy in Asia is out of stock and has no idea whether they will get more in stock.

As a replacement, they had PROVIBOL which I had never heard of. It is an Indian brand, same pill strength, etc., as proviron, with the same active ingredient.

It was also the same price which means they are probably making more money with an Indian brand instead of Bayer/shering from Brazil.

#187

I met with my doctor here in Asia today, and she wasn’t happy about my Vit D levels being so high, when considered with other blood tests that were out of bounds. She wants me to reduce by 2/3 the amount I take and then retest to see where the levels are. FYI @NH_Watts; I was surprised to hear her concern.

She was MOST unhappy with my hematocrit of 53.5 and convinced me to get a blood draw immediately. Note to self: the needle used for giving blood or blood draws is not small like the one used for a blood test. It hurt! 400cc (13.5 oz) of blood was removed from me and destroyed.

During my next blood test, she wants me to add GGT and Vit B6. She also wants a liver ultra sound because as she said - “not enough is really known about low alkaline phophatase” and she wants to make sure there is nothing in the liver. None of my notes indicate that I have ever had a liver ultra sound before.

I had written about the possible link between “excess” vitamin D ingestion and Low ALP, so I guess I should have made adjustments myself without needing to be told. Live and lean.

She also mentioned that what is considered “excess” varies tremendously between people, but that anything over 100 in the blood test could be considered at the toxic level (depending on the person). I was at 99.7.

The estradiol increase is another aspect of her worries, but I explained that I wanted to see it increase slightly to see if I felt any better overall. Since I have been feeling better, I am trying to watch and learn where the “E sweet spot” is for me.

She prescribed my 90 days of Danazol; which cost me the same amount as I pay for 30 days in the USA. American Health Care … go figure.


On another note, I started experimenting with Proviron again for libido. Started 1/day for five days; am now at 2/day and working toward 3/day. So far, 1/day is still having the same ZERO effect as before. I am taking them at different times, but am curious if that really gets the maximum effect, since the half-life is 12 hours; and takes 2 hours to be in full force.

#188

Seems unwarranted but docs can be funny about numbers.

" RESULTS:
Of 20,308 total 25(OH)D measurements, 1714 (8.4%), 123 (0.6%), and 37 (0.2%) unique persons had 25(OH)D values above 50, 80 and above, and 100 ng/mL and above, respectively. The age- and sex-adjusted incidence of 25(OH)D values above 50 ng/mL increased from 9 to 233 cases per 100,000 person-years from 2002 to 2011 (P<.001), respectively, and was greatest in persons aged 65 years and older (P<.001) and in women (P<.001). Serum 25(OH)D values were not significantly related to serum calcium values (P=.20) or with the risk of hypercalcemia (P=.24). A medical record review identified 4 cases (0.2%) in whom 25(OH)D values above 50 ng/mL were temporally associated with hypercalcemia, but only 1 case had clinical toxicity associated with the highest observed 25(OH)D value of 364 ng/mL"

Yeah donation needles are nearly sharpened straws. Because there is so much being taken it quickens the process and keeps the needle from getting clogged up. They usually use an anticoagulant that stings pretty well too.

1 Like
#189

Proviron Update:

I stopped my final experiment with Proviron today. I had worked up to 3/day and felt worse than before. I am not taking blood tests right now to support my feelings, but I am guessing that Proviron and Danazol don’t work well together; and I’m GUESSING that it is lowering my Estradiol levels too much, which is why I am having MORE erection problems rather than less.

So, I guess that it is it for me, and experimenting with Proviron. I had high hopes of major libido enhancement that never materialized.
:frowning:

#190

MY ONE YEAR UPDATE:

My first post on TForums was 11/8/17. It has been one year since I started documenting my road to (hopeful) recovery and improvement.

Since that first post …

I have gained 21 pounds, not intentionally, but not flab either. I had a short term feeling of being “bloated” but that went away immediately.

I sleep well now in total contrast! I didn’t realize just how good I am sleeping until I was traveling again and STILL sleeping good. That is something I hope will never change. Now if I could only sleep ALL NIGHT without waking up!

I still cry during emotional tv. Damnit.

I don’t fart for 20-30 seconds every morning anymore. My wife is happy. I assume that is from the Probiotic.

I chose BioTE testosterone pellet insertion. Contrary to other poster’s opinions, it was NOT a mistake. It takes a while to determine the dose and longevity of the insertion, and I had one month of feeling like shit on pellets because of a substantial drop before my boost. Monthly blood work allowed me and the doctor to determine how much T I needed and how often. You do not need to crash every cycle like some people write - provided you have a doctor that understands and will work with you. YES, you CAN optimize dosage, don’t be fooled.

Contrary to other posts, pellets ARE the best solution for me. No needles, injections, getting all of this crap through customs in multiple countries. And I hate injections and I know I would not do it forever. AND … I have had less side effects.

Testosterone DID NOT and DOES NOT reduce SHBG in MY circumstance. I needed something else to reduce SHBG because no amount of T was going to do it, regardless of whether it was a pellet in my ass or a needle stuck in me.

I hit 2.64% on the Free T count. Something I was told wasn’t possible on pellets.

I had high cortisone and cortisol. Both have now been reduced.

I feel better about life; the world is in color, vibrant and brighter than it was during my first post one year ago. I am not so tired as before. It has only been six weeks that I have felt this way.

I feel so much more balanced than before.

My hematocrit climbed over 50 a few times and I had “blood let” last week to appease my doctor.

And now ERECTIONS … I still need chemical help (ie: viagra) to go from a banana in its peeling to a cucumber. However, I do see more of that banana in its peeling that I have in years.

Erections still aren’t where I want, but progress has been made and I’m not sure how much better I am going to get.

I still take a ridiculous amount of supplements, and will continue to do so. My wife won’t watch me swallow them because it makes her sick to think of the number of capsules I am swallowing.

Every three months, my ass is sore for a week. And if you rub my ass, you can feel bumps were T pellets are located. (That was a statement, not an offer.) LOL

Costs:
BioTe pellet insertions are averaging $230-$250 per month based on the three months I am getting out of the pellets.

Danazol is approximately $86 per month.

Supplements/vitamins are probably about $200 per month including shakes, but I don’t actually add their cost.

I am NOT a bodybuilder or a trainer or a serious weight-lifter of any kind. I am an average guy pre-disposed to suffer with insane levels of SHBG.

I do not plan to quit posting, and if there are any updates, I will be sure to include them in this journal of my journey.

Thanks to those of you who have kept up and offered opinions along the way.

1 Like
#191

I was re-reading your post today.

Of my 21 pound gain in a year, 60% was since September (slightly over 2 months). As I look back, I find that figure interesting, as I did stop paying so much attention to carbs and began to gradually eat more. But truthfully, I was HUNGRY - it wasn’t a conscious effort to eat more. Third week of September is when I started feeling like a human.

I eat a truckload of fruit - to the point that one doctor thought I might be eating too much. I can’t prove or disprove that the fruit (fructose) was helping to lower my SHBG.

You also mentioned protein. With morning shake supplements and afternoon Quest protein bars in addition to eating meat, I felt that I was getting the protein I needed.

NOTHING affected my SHBG levels except for Boron (only slightly) and Danazol (substantially).

I have also resigned myself to the real-life potential of being a heavier person. That wasn’t what my plan was in life, but when it comes to being skinny, or having a working penis, I choose the latter.

:slight_smile:

I won’t stop TRT. I don’t want to experiment any more. BUT - I still say that I wish I would have tried other treatments before TRT. And even though everyone has drilled it into my head that my testicles would have shut down, I still would have liked to see what would have happened with danazol and increasing my diet first. I was checking my blood every month; I could have started TRT anytime.

Maybe this post will help someone else to consider more possibilities when SHBG is insanely high like mine. Because what I was told - and what I read – that SHBG is driven down by Testosterone – was not correct in my situation.

#192

I wonder if the liver was too busy metabolizing the fructose to crank out SHBG?

#193

going by the Trigs and VLDL, it looks like your liver is doing just fine with the truckload of fruits you’re having.

I’m on 5 bananas, 2 kiwis, 2 apples and 16oz of berry juice a day… doctors need to understand that fructose from fruits isn’t exactly the poison Dr. Lustig is always talking about (he’s actually pro fruit). Your liver appreciates having a full reserve of liver glycogen. You’ll burn it quick.

By the way I think your T protocol is overdosed. You wouldn’t need viagra if you had half those levels, all (major) hormones included. You’re consistently in the 4 digits for total T, you’re above range for free T and total e2 so I’m guessing free e2 is going to be too high. Just reduce the T protocol and shoot for mid range.

I don’t know where you live but 12kIU of vitamin D may be a lot if you want to maintain satisfactory levels. I tested at 93 ng/mL the other week myself, and I backed down to 40kIU e10d. Make sure your K2 intake is high in this scenario.

Obviously using Proviron beyond 12.5mg may have proven to be too much, I’m very sensitive to it and barely need this dose 3 days a week to feel great. More isn’t, has never been, and will never be better when it comes to HRT I’m afraid.

#194

Hi @tontongg, thanks for the comments.

PRIOR to TRT, I maintained a T level always above 1000 (sometimes as high as 1300). The internet world all believe that my levels were “artificially high” because of SHBG. The doctors believe my T levels are an anomaly and were probably over 3000 when I was a teen.

I feel my best when I stay over 1500. With pellets, to stay higher than that for my cycle, I must start higher. However, I continue to check blood levels and chart how I feel. As part of my testing, I got down to 762 and 444 and wanted to die.

After the blood let, my Asian doctor complained about the Vit D levels, especially with the ALP going so low (without explanation). I have reduced vit D by 2/3, taking about (?) 3000iu per day.

By the way, you can see a better picture of the Estrogens in the 24-hour urine hormone panel here.

Blood tests will be the first week of December.

#195

Alright alright

The older I get the more I understand the mantra “treat symptoms not numbers”. I’m not convinced high (free) Androgens is a desirable place to be in but if that’s how you feel best then np

Low E2 All Parts of Cycle (Pellets)
#196

If you have been following this journey, you know that for the past year+, I have been having full blood hormone panels performed every 4 weeks. It has helped to get a handle on what is going on in my body.

But I feel as though things are leveling out, and I decided to cut back to every six weeks, working my way to every three months, to coincide with the week before pellet re-insertion.

Today was blood day. And as the results begin trickling in, I find myself surprised at some of the results.

  1. For multiple blood cycles, my “alkaline phosphatase” was unusually high, as well as my HDL-C, which was also low, which neither doctor was happy with. My Asian doctor asked me to cut down my Vitamin D by 2/3 (to 4000iu), which I agreed. In conjunction, my HDL-C was also low.

The latest results show my Alkaline Phosphatase returning to normal (46 on a 35-129 scale); and my HDL-C moving to 54 on a >35 scale.

I did not make any other changes except the reduction of vit D.

  1. Even with the substantial reduction in Vitamin D supplements, my test levels showed >70 on a >29 scale. That is not good and makes me think I need to lower the intake even more. I am getting substantially more sun right now, and that may be something I will have to consider as I plan supplements in the future. The goal was to get me in the 45-50 range.

panel%202%20vit%20d

  1. DHEA-S INCREASED even though I cut the amount of DHEA supplementation in half. I was at a reasonable 263.7 in the previous test; 403 on this test (on a scale of 51-295. That is a real shock.

  1. Hematocrit. A month back, I had a blood let because my hematocrit was at 53, and my doctor was in a panic about that number. She won’t be happy with this test result either. Hematocrit INCREASED to 55.7. Red blood cells count was also high.

What bothers me the most about this is: “A high hematocrit with a high RBC count and high hemoglobin indicates polycythemia. … Dehydration”. I seriously monitor my intake of water. The only time I can be dehydrated is in the early morning when I can’t have liquid after midnight because of this test.

Nowhere on the web does it talk about taking an afternoon blood test to confirm dehydration.

  1. Estradiol. I was slightly high last test, but I wanted it higher in order to find my sweet spot and see overall how I was feeling. Remember that ultra-sensitive tests are not available in Asia, so my regular E2 test came back at 69.8 on a scale of 25-60. That is about the same amount higher (by percentage) than I was last cycle. It is possible that I should return to 2 dim daily instead of one.

I am feeling pretty good however with the slightly elevated E2.

panel%205%20-%20estradiol

  1. Asian doctor asked me to add a few tests, including GGT (Gamma Glutamyltransferase) which is a liver based test. It was normal at 20 on a 10-66 scale. “GGT is elevated in the blood in most diseases that cause damage to the liver or bile ducts”. Doctors also use the test to see if the patient might be under-reporting alcohol use (I don’t drink).

  1. SHBG increased to 40.55 which I am not happy to see. The only difference in what I am doing is that I am taking Danazol in 100mg capsules at 6pm each day; if I was in the USA, I take a 50mg early morning, and another 50mg at 6pm. I do not understand how that could effect my numbers.

  2. The rise in SHBG caused a decrease in Free Testosterone, which was 2.2% this time. If my SHBG had remained at 30 like before, I would be at a 2.5% ft.

  3. Testosterone was 1435. That is a similar drop to my last insertion. Based on previous testing, the increased SHBG will cause my testosterone to deplete faster which could mean that I will have lower T levels than I am comfortable with at the end of the cycle. Keeping my SHBG lower causes my T levels to remain higher for a longer time.

  1. (Still missing one test)
1 Like
Vitamin & Protein Supplements - My Experiences
#197

Hell of a write up. Keep us posted.

#198

I received the final results to day for Vitamin B6 (also requested by Asian doctor).

As you see, I am between 6-7 times higher than the top of the scale.

My multi vitamin has 30mg B-6, and my Adrenal Support supplement has 10mg. I would not have imagined that I could be so far out of range … I am NOT taking any other Vit B supplements.

From a web site:

If your level is high, however, unless you are taking high doses of B6, then it usually means that you are actually DEFICIENT in Vitamin B6, as you’ll see below. For most people, it’s safe to take as much as 200-500 mg per day, and toxicity almost never occurs at levels lower than 1000 mg per day. Ironically, high B6 levels in blood will decrease and return to NORMAL when sufficient amounts of P5P are taken to remedy the deficiency.

What??? Over 18 months ago, I was taking 50mg of P5P daily (the active ingredient/enzyme of Vit b6 that is easier for the body to process) but stopped as I felt it was doing nothing.

Here comes a doctor’s visit …

#199

Any out-of-whack results make me start reading.

  1. My Estrogen and SHBG levels
    In most people, Estrogen and SHBG rise and fall together. In my case, they did not. My E was very low and my SHBG was very high – which completely confused the doctors.

Is it possible that my body is changing, and my higher E is translating to higher SHBG?

  1. My high DHEA
    I found patient reports that correlated higher than normal DHEA levels “converting” to E2, making E2 also rise higher. And high DHEA levels added to weight gain.

I can’t claim to have any side effects of high DHEA; but the possibility that my weight gain and my increase in E2 might be tied to it, makes me consider dropping the supplement for a while until I perform the next blood tests.

When I look back at my saliva hormone test, my DHEA-S was considered LOW, not high, which adds more confusion.

My urine test showed me 20 times higher than top of scale. Go figure.

  1. HDL C
    If you are bored enough to have been keeping up, you will remember that I had multiple blood tests where my HDL-C was low. Today I found a study where DANAZOL is known to reduce HDL-C.

I thought it might be due to my high Vit D levels (which I believe explained the out of balance Alkaline Phosphatase levels). But further reading tells me this might be a regular result on my tests as long as I take Danazol.

But, as I said in the last post, a doctor’s visit is necessary in hopes of clarifying some of these issues. I intend to stop DHEA for now.

I still feel good … with regular morning wood. I do not have unlimited energy (mental or physical) nor do I have the desire to lift any cars for fun. Compared to a year ago, I’m doing great. Hopefully tweaking the supplements will continue to make me improve.