T Nation

High T, Feeling Bad

First off, I’m not a doctor or a guy who spends countless hours researching on this or any other site. I’m just a husband with 4 active boys and a career so keep your critiques on my lack of knowledge regarding this subject to yourself.

Hopefully both attachments accompanied this post but I will apologize in advance if they didnt. My doctor said that my testosterone levels were high and I should cutback my 1 ml of cyp 200mg/ml injection every 7 days to every 10 days. Side note for all the experts that have not left the room; yes I know he only tested for total E & T. When pushed on my concerns, he ordered a FSH test. Everything I pull up about this on the net relates to a woman getting pregnant. I hope I am not ovulating.

Here’s my issues; serious lack of energy the last 2 months. I wrote that off to some over training. I’m in the gym 3x a week and training for a 10k in 2 weeks. Second issue; sex drive has diminished and for the first time, I couldnt finish the deed.

Any thoughts?

Second Page of results

Have you read the advice for new guys sticky? You now have three threads here.

Get everything in one thread, we need context there.

When on TRT, FSH will be zero, same for LH. But if FSH is elevated when in TRT, there could be a FSH secreting testicular cancer. No need for routine LH/FSH labs when on TRT.

Read the protocol for injections sticky, 200 mg every week is too high.

Total estrogens way too high, result of the above.

Have you read the advice for new guys sticky? You now have three threads here.

Get everything in one thread, we need context there.

When on TRT, FSH will be zero, same for LH. But if FSH is elevated when in TRT, there could be a FSH secreting testicular cancer. No need for routine LH/FSH labs when on TRT.

Read the protocol for injections sticky, 200 mg every week is too high.

Total estrogens way too high, result of the above.

[quote]KSman wrote:
Have you read the advice for new guys sticky? You now have three threads here.[quote]

[/quote]Get everything in one thread, we need context there…[/quote]

I thought this was a forum, not a lecture hall. A forum by definition is a place to express yourself, a place to meet for discussion. I must have confused this site with a forum.

Everyone here is at a different level, we try to do our research and then ask questions. The condescending attitude is a serious detraction from this sight. As a preemptive strike, I started my post by requesting the expert/ know-it-alls to not bother. I prefer to hear from a real guy who is struggling as I am, then someone telling me to read the text book.

Context there? I have no idea what that is referring to.

Actually, if you go to forums where it is a free for all chat room, the value is greatly diminished. Here, we want all of your post and labs in a single thread so we have better context to allow for the best interpretation and advice. If you want something else …

If you do not keep everything in one post, you are asking contributors to seek out and hunt for details in different threads; or asking that contributors respond to you with half-a-deck.

You will find that the when you get a comprehensive reply, that the post is from someone who has gone through many of the downfalls and screw-ups that you have, or might be getting into. So these are guys who have walked down the same road as you. And after dealing with hundreds of guys over the years, we have the benefit of a greater than one perspective.

You are not getting lectured. You are getting pushed in a direction where you will get the greatest benefit.

We cannot go to square one with everyone, that is time consuming and burns out contributors. Creating the stickies solves that problem and we direct guys there to learn the basics. When you have picked up the material in the stickies, you will then be able to ask for clarifications and discuss how this affects your personal situation and labs etc.

So give it another try.

I just got my blood work back. Doc tested FSH only after I pleaded with him to consider a SERM or AI. Is that the proper test anyway? So the results: <0.7 (range: 1.6-8.0)

I got the test results before him via Gazelle from Quest Diagnostics. (If you don’t know what that is look it up and get it, you’ll thank me) I called today and the nurse said “it was a little low but the Doctor said he doesn’t need a follow up appoint.” I did ask for her to have him take another look.

I am seriously afraid that if I push anything he’s going to push back. Side note; I corrected my dosage in my original post.

[quote]doublelung84 wrote:
I just got my blood work back. Doc tested FSH only after I pleaded with him to consider a SERM or AI. Is that the proper test anyway? So the results: <0.7 (range: 1.6-8.0)

I got the test results before him via Gazelle from Quest Diagnostics. (If you don?t know what that is look it up and get it, you’ll thank me) I called today and the nurse said “it was a little low but the Doctor said he doesn?t need a follow up appoint.” I did ask for her to have him take another look.

I am seriously afraid that if I push anything he’s going to push back. Side note; I corrected my dosage in my original post.
[/quote]

Did he check your free testosterone or just total? Probably need to check SHBG (how they calculate free from total) and estradiol. Also low FSH could cause hypogonadism but your total test is high. Do a full metabolic panel and make sure they will check other pituitary and thryoid (tsh,t3,t4) hormones. I personally wouldn’t push for drugs until you know what you are dealing with.

I know it sucks to be told to read the stickies, but seriously read them. KSman knows his shit and him and other put a lot of time into those stickies. If you want to play an active role in your healthcare you need to learn a little bit about it.

not a lecture

You MUST learn about this stuff yourself. This site has a wealth of information. Stickies are the starting point. Docs don’t know much about this stuff, unfortunately.

end - not a lecture

Here’s my real two cents. How long has the sex drive been diminished? Could be elevated prolactin. Could be low DHT. I had lower DHT on injections than gels. Libido was through the roof on androgel due to the high DHT conversion. Just a thought.

Total estrogens are high, so estradiol is probably high. That can make you feel bad as well. When T goes up, so does E2 (estradiol) via aromatase enzymes. You’ll need an aromatase inhibitor to control that. There’s another battle with the docs to fight, or you could look up anastrozole research chemical.

I’m just a normal guy who’s been dealing with this over the past two years. Still looking for the answer. I hope you find yours.

P.S. Listen to KSman. He knows his stuff.

Kaynon311,

THANK YOU! You are a breath of fresh air. No doubt there are guys here who know their stuff, it’s in the delivery. My prolactin numbers were mid range but as in my last post, the FSH was in the basement. Doc chose not to do anything. when I asked him about an AI he balked and said we can check youR FSH. I guess he was hoping it came back in range and that would be his reason for not giving me an AI.

I know nothing about " Anastrozole research chemicals" but will try to do some research on it. PLEASE p.m. me with anything that would get me in the right direction.

P.S. Did I say thanks?!

spyderman4g63

Thanks for the input. Sex drive has been tailing off for about 3 months. Doc just did a total on the “T”. I’m just a bit tired from the fight with my Doc. and poring time in on this, I’m doing what I can with what I have. I think there’s a problem when we go to the doctors and we are the smartest guy in the room!

FSH will be close to 0 when you are on TRT, so don’t worry about it. It’s kinda meaningless to test it while on TRT in most cases

It is possible that your complaints are a result of elevated E2, but we cannot really tell you that. Also, some guys’ sex drive and performance deteriorate when testosterone itself gets too high.

I doubt that you have to worry about low free T with total T that high. I wouldn’t spend my energies on fighting with the doctor for that test.

A SERM like Clomid is not usually used with testosterone, although it is sometimes used as a form of HRT INSTEAD of testosterone when fertility maintenance is desired.

An AI like arimidex is used by some doctors to reduce estrogens (like E2) when they get too high during testosterone therapy. However, since your testosterone is testing very high, it would be better to instead first reduce the T dose, and that should automatically lower your E2 as well. Your doctor is already effectively proposing doing this, but it would be better to inject a lower dose every week than using the same dose every 10 days as he proposed.

[quote]seekonk wrote:
FSH will be close to 0 when you are on TRT, so don’t worry about it. It’s kinda meaningless to test it while on TRT in most cases

A SERM like Clomid is not usually used with testosterone, although it is sometimes used as a form of HRT INSTEAD of testosterone when fertility maintenance is desired.

An AI like arimidex is used by some doctors to reduce estrogens (like E2) when they get too high during testosterone therapy. However, since your testosterone is testing very high, it would be better to instead first reduce the T dose, and that should automatically lower your E2 as well. Your doctor is already effectively proposing doing this, but it would be better to inject a lower dose every week than using the same dose every 10 days as he proposed. [/quote]

So I should not have any concerns regarding my current FSH level, right?

I like the idea of reducing the dosage over the longer time between injection. I’ve gotten use to doing it every Saturday after my leg training. Glutes will be sore the next day anyway.

KAYNON311 mentioned “anastrozole research chemical” I am considering an AI along with the reduction in my “T” dosage.

Thanks for your input!

[quote]doublelung84 wrote:

[quote]seekonk wrote:
FSH will be close to 0 when you are on TRT, so don’t worry about it. It’s kinda meaningless to test it while on TRT in most cases

A SERM like Clomid is not usually used with testosterone, although it is sometimes used as a form of HRT INSTEAD of testosterone when fertility maintenance is desired.

An AI like arimidex is used by some doctors to reduce estrogens (like E2) when they get too high during testosterone therapy. However, since your testosterone is testing very high, it would be better to instead first reduce the T dose, and that should automatically lower your E2 as well. Your doctor is already effectively proposing doing this, but it would be better to inject a lower dose every week than using the same dose every 10 days as he proposed. [/quote]

So I should not have any concerns regarding my current FSH level, right?

I like the idea of reducing the dosage over the longer time between injection. I’ve gotten use to doing it every Saturday after my leg training. Glutes will be sore the next day anyway.

KAYNON311 mentioned “anastrozole research chemical” I am considering an AI along with the reduction in my “T” dosage.

Thanks for your input![/quote]

No. LH and FSH are bottomed out while on TRT.

Many on here inject 2-3 times a week sub-q. If injecting once a week is working well for you, no worries. More often maintains steadier levels for less “roller coaster effect”, in case that’s an issue for you.

People get a little jumpy on here if you name sources. We speak generically. There are several reputable companies out there. Look around on other forums for what has worked for them. The protocol for injections sticky explains how to take anastrozole. (100mg/test-1mg/anastrozole, 125mg/test-1.25mg anastrozole, etc) Watch out for the signs of over-responding. Low E2 kills libido as well as high E2. Over-responding seems to be more common than we originally thought.

Prolactin not really high enough to kill libido.

P.S. you are more than welcome! We try to help each other out around here with the knowledge we’ve gained through our own personal hardships. Hopefully can save others from some hardships of their own.

[quote]doublelung84 wrote:

[quote]seekonk wrote:
FSH will be close to 0 when you are on TRT, so don’t worry about it. It’s kinda meaningless to test it while on TRT in most cases

A SERM like Clomid is not usually used with testosterone, although it is sometimes used as a form of HRT INSTEAD of testosterone when fertility maintenance is desired.

An AI like arimidex is used by some doctors to reduce estrogens (like E2) when they get too high during testosterone therapy. However, since your testosterone is testing very high, it would be better to instead first reduce the T dose, and that should automatically lower your E2 as well. Your doctor is already effectively proposing doing this, but it would be better to inject a lower dose every week than using the same dose every 10 days as he proposed. [/quote]

So I should not have any concerns regarding my current FSH level, right?

I like the idea of reducing the dosage over the longer time between injection. I’ve gotten use to doing it every Saturday after my leg training. Glutes will be sore the next day anyway.

KAYNON311 mentioned “anastrozole research chemical” I am considering an AI along with the reduction in my “T” dosage.

Thanks for your input![/quote]

Most companies selling research chemicals are legit but as has been said do the research for best prices.

KSman’s sticky on protocol for injection; I read it 3 times and learn something every time. NICE!

The sticky states; “My recommendation is to start anastrozole at 1.0mg per week [in divided doses] starting the day of the first injection. The let the first follow up E2 lab drive any needed anastrozole dose adjustments. It is not a good idea to wait and see how high E2 levels go before taking action. Dose anastrozole EOD if possible.”

So I found a company on line and they have Anastrozole 1mg x 30ml for $20. Now here is where I really sound stupid. It’s in a vial with an eye dropper, how do I take it, this is an oral right? I warned you. And if I am to take 1mg a week in divided doses, and the bottle has 30 mls in it, that would last 30 weeks?

OK, NOW EXPLAIN WHERE I WENT WRONG! LOL!

You got it right. The dropper should have a mL line on it. If you’re still injecting 200mg every 7 days, take 2mL at the time of injection. Your E2 rises and falls with T, so dosing same time as injection prevents that sharp increase in E2.

The EOD dosing is geared towards the guys who are injecting multiple times a week. I think KSman is on everything (hCG, T, adex) EOD right now. This wouldn’t apply to you.

When you start taking it, it will take a little time for the liver to start clearing the estrogen from your body. Be patient. If you hit the “sweet spot”, but things go downhill from there, you need to lower the dosage. This is MUCH MUCH easier with the liquid than the tablets.

[quote]Kaynon311 wrote:
You got it right. The dropper should have a mL line on it. If you’re still injecting 200mg every 7 days, take 2mL at the time of injection. Your E2 rises and falls with T, so dosing same time as injection prevents that sharp increase in E2.

The EOD dosing is geared towards the guys who are injecting multiple times a week. I think KSman is on everything (hCG, T, adex) EOD right now. This wouldn’t apply to you.

When you start taking it, it will take a little time for the liver to start clearing the estrogen from your body. Be patient. If you hit the “sweet spot”, but things go downhill from there, you need to lower the dosage. This is MUCH MUCH easier with the liquid than the tablets.[/quote]

So I have it right, 2 ml on T injection day and nothing else the rest of the week. Even at that dose, the AI will last 4 months and at 20 or 30 bucks this sounds like a no-brainer to get the most out of my T injection.

As for the time it will take my liver to washout my E; can you give me an estimate on the time? I long for the days when I was 6 months into my TRT. A bit off topic but some of these suppliers offer ED stuff also, any thoughts. Maybe one thing at a time is best…

[quote]doublelung84 wrote:

[quote]Kaynon311 wrote:
You got it right. The dropper should have a mL line on it. If you’re still injecting 200mg every 7 days, take 2mL at the time of injection. Your E2 rises and falls with T, so dosing same time as injection prevents that sharp increase in E2.

The EOD dosing is geared towards the guys who are injecting multiple times a week. I think KSman is on everything (hCG, T, adex) EOD right now. This wouldn’t apply to you.

When you start taking it, it will take a little time for the liver to start clearing the estrogen from your body. Be patient. If you hit the “sweet spot”, but things go downhill from there, you need to lower the dosage. This is MUCH MUCH easier with the liquid than the tablets.[/quote]

So I have it right, 2 ml on T injection day and nothing else the rest of the week. Even at that dose, the AI will last 4 months and at 20 or 30 bucks this sounds like a no-brainer to get the most out of my T injection.

As for the time it will take my liver to washout my E; can you give me an estimate on the time? I long for the days when I was 6 months into my TRT. A bit off topic but some of these suppliers offer ED stuff also, any thoughts. Maybe one thing at a time is best…[/quote]

If you need it, it’s inexpensive enough, but ask your doctor first. He may give you some samples.

I recommend cialis. The research companies would carry the generic Tadalafil, and it it is perhaps best to get the liquid form.

In case you were unaware there is research that shows taking just a small amount daily can boost your testosterone by reducing the conversion from testosterone to estrogen. They are also discovering that it helps the heart and you can read accounts from those that lift weights and swear by the boost it gives there as well. Depending on your health it can make you feel like you could do squats all day. Gives a good pump in the bedroom & gym.

Like the other read up as much as possible on this from different sources.

conservativedog wrote:

"I recommend cialis. The research companies would carry the generic Tadalafil, and it it is perhaps best to get the liquid form.

In case you were unaware there is research that shows taking just a small amount daily can boost your testosterone by reducing the conversion from testosterone to estrogen. They are also discovering that it helps the heart and you can read accounts from those that lift weights and swear by the boost it gives there as well. Depending on your health it can make you feel like you could do squats all day. Gives a good pump in the bedroom & gym."

I did some research on Tadalafil as you recommended. I the source had it at 25mg/mL 30ml bottle for $30. Any recommendations on dosing? Everyone here seems to be going with 10 mg to start. Good idea? Does this start to work on day one? Another question; the source had this disclaimer:

WARNING Tadalafil is a very potent chemical. This product is NOT for human use and can be harmful if ingested. This product is for research/laboratory use only. This product is NOT in a sterile solution and is NOT to be injected…

Do I need to be concerned about the Sterile solution part of this? I understand that it does not get injected.

Thanks!