[quote]OldOgre wrote:
[quote]Aopocetx wrote:
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
Before I say my piece I would rather hear from you guys why anyone should do the high pulls over other exercises. For what purpose? Why is a great choice for that purpose? etc. Be specific.[/quote]
So now you tell us why they suck. [/quote]
Dude, is that your arm in your avi or did you photo shop a picture of a hand onto a leg? Nice.
I also want the OP to tell us why they suck. [/quote]
OP never said they suck
Arguing for or against an exercise cannot happen in isolation because there are so many different alternatives to choose from.
If done correctly, high pulls are primarily a hip extension exercise. However, hip extension (glutes,hams) can be better trained with DL variations (e.g., RDLs) due to the much heavier loads that can be used. Same goes for erector spinae. Lats (due shoulder extension) are only weakly involved and can be trained better otherwise as well.
I can’t say how useful high pulls are for improving the motor patterns for the 2 lifts of Oly WLer. But the number of serious WLers on this forum tends to zero anyway so who cares.
Are high pulls fun to do? Yeah. Also useful for general warm-ups - I use them for that sometimes.
Finally, are high pulls a great trap exercise? Maybe. Better than simpler & more traditional approaches? I doubt it.
(SG)HP is a decent exercise on its own, but there are better alternatives for training the different muscle groups.
Maybe Christian Thibaudeau will read this and quit telling people to do them then.
[quote]OldOgre wrote:
Maybe Christian Thibaudeau will read this and quit telling people to do them then.[/quote]
CT has already addressed this in his latest article.
“People who only lift heavy or do Olympic-style lifting rarely have impressive arms and shoulders. The exception is heavy lifters who add high-rep, isolation work.”
“Doing only the big basics can lead to strength imbalances that will ultimately impair your performance and size.”
His selection of specific exercises involving several muscle groups have more to do with “training for performance”(whatever that means) than actually targeting specific bodyparts. If that’s the goal, then yes, high pulls are a fine exercise.
Infinite Shore is quite right.
[quote]dt79 wrote:
Infinite Shore is quite right.[/quote]
love him or hate him, he usually is.
[quote]dt79 wrote:
[quote]OldOgre wrote:
Maybe Christian Thibaudeau will read this and quit telling people to do them then.[/quote]
CT has already addressed this in his latest article.
“People who only lift heavy or do Olympic-style lifting rarely have impressive arms and shoulders. The exception is heavy lifters who add high-rep, isolation work.”
“Doing only the big basics can lead to strength imbalances that will ultimately impair your performance and size.”
His selection of specific exercises involving several muscle groups have more to do with “training for performance”(whatever that means) than actually targeting specific bodyparts. If that’s the goal, then yes, high pulls are a fine exercise.
Infinite Shore is quite right.[/quote]
You cited an article about shoulder training. So, yes, I agree with you, the SGHP is not an effective shoulder training exercise. However, I am still going to do them this evening when I train back.
[quote]OldOgre wrote:
[quote]dt79 wrote:
[quote]OldOgre wrote:
Maybe Christian Thibaudeau will read this and quit telling people to do them then.[/quote]
CT has already addressed this in his latest article.
“People who only lift heavy or do Olympic-style lifting rarely have impressive arms and shoulders. The exception is heavy lifters who add high-rep, isolation work.”
“Doing only the big basics can lead to strength imbalances that will ultimately impair your performance and size.”
His selection of specific exercises involving several muscle groups have more to do with “training for performance”(whatever that means) than actually targeting specific bodyparts. If that’s the goal, then yes, high pulls are a fine exercise.
Infinite Shore is quite right.[/quote]
You cited an article about shoulder training. So, yes, I agree with you, the SGHP is not an effective shoulder training exercise. However, I am still going to do them this evening when I train back.
[/quote]
The article I cited actually sums up a lot of his principles over the years regarding optimal development of a bodypart.
No one has said SGHPs are ineffective. Just like the push press is not an ineffective exercise for shoulders, especially if we’re talking about training economy. But for optimal development, a more targeted approach has to be used, which may or may not include the push press depending on how the overall plan is set up.
[quote]dt79 wrote:
[quote]OldOgre wrote:
[quote]dt79 wrote:
[quote]OldOgre wrote:
Maybe Christian Thibaudeau will read this and quit telling people to do them then.[/quote]
CT has already addressed this in his latest article.
“People who only lift heavy or do Olympic-style lifting rarely have impressive arms and shoulders. The exception is heavy lifters who add high-rep, isolation work.”
“Doing only the big basics can lead to strength imbalances that will ultimately impair your performance and size.”
His selection of specific exercises involving several muscle groups have more to do with “training for performance”(whatever that means) than actually targeting specific bodyparts. If that’s the goal, then yes, high pulls are a fine exercise.
Infinite Shore is quite right.[/quote]
You cited an article about shoulder training. So, yes, I agree with you, the SGHP is not an effective shoulder training exercise. However, I am still going to do them this evening when I train back.
[/quote]
The article I cited actually sums up a lot of his principles over the years regarding optimal development of a bodypart.
No one has said SGHPs are ineffective. Just like the push press is not an ineffective exercise for shoulders, especially if we’re talking about training economy. But for optimal development, a more targeted approach has to be used, which may or may not include the push press depending on how the overall plan is set up.[/quote]
Infinite Shore started out saying he doesn’t know why anyone would do them, they aren’t really useful for anything. I disagree. Different strokes for different folks. They may not work for you. They work for me. There is no one size fits all exercise.
If you’ve been doing deadlifts and bent over rows, and then you switch to deads and high pulls to build your traps, aren’t you using a more targeted approach?
[quote]OldOgre wrote:
[quote]dt79 wrote:
[quote]OldOgre wrote:
[quote]dt79 wrote:
[quote]OldOgre wrote:
Maybe Christian Thibaudeau will read this and quit telling people to do them then.[/quote]
CT has already addressed this in his latest article.
“People who only lift heavy or do Olympic-style lifting rarely have impressive arms and shoulders. The exception is heavy lifters who add high-rep, isolation work.”
“Doing only the big basics can lead to strength imbalances that will ultimately impair your performance and size.”
His selection of specific exercises involving several muscle groups have more to do with “training for performance”(whatever that means) than actually targeting specific bodyparts. If that’s the goal, then yes, high pulls are a fine exercise.
Infinite Shore is quite right.[/quote]
You cited an article about shoulder training. So, yes, I agree with you, the SGHP is not an effective shoulder training exercise. However, I am still going to do them this evening when I train back.
[/quote]
The article I cited actually sums up a lot of his principles over the years regarding optimal development of a bodypart.
No one has said SGHPs are ineffective. Just like the push press is not an ineffective exercise for shoulders, especially if we’re talking about training economy. But for optimal development, a more targeted approach has to be used, which may or may not include the push press depending on how the overall plan is set up.[/quote]
Infinite Shore started out saying he doesn’t know why anyone would do them, they aren’t really useful for anything. I disagree. Different strokes for different folks. They may not work for you. They work for me. There is no one size fits all exercise. [/quote]
He said “they’re not a great exercise for anything”. Which meant, as he later added, that there are better exercises for one’s specific goals.
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
Arguing for or against an exercise cannot happen in isolation because there are so many different alternatives to choose from.
If done correctly, high pulls are primarily a hip extension exercise. However, hip extension (glutes,hams) can be better trained with DL variations (e.g., RDLs) due to the much heavier loads that can be used. Same goes for erector spinae. Lats (due shoulder extension) are only weakly involved and can be trained better otherwise as well.
I can’t say how useful high pulls are for improving the motor patterns for the 2 lifts of Oly WLer. But the number of serious WLers on this forum tends to zero anyway so who cares.
Are high pulls fun to do? Yeah. Also useful for general warm-ups - I use them for that sometimes.
Finally, are high pulls a great trap exercise? Maybe. Better than simpler & more traditional approaches? I doubt it.
(SG)HP is a decent exercise on its own, but there are better alternatives for training the different muscle groups. [/quote]
[quote]FlatsFarmer wrote:
If you’ve been doing deadlifts and bent over rows, and then you switch to deads and high pulls to build your traps, aren’t you using a more targeted approach?
[/quote]
Replace the word “traps” with “back”.
I do high pulls as a lead-up to clean pulls as a lead-up to deadlifts. I won’t be stopping them anytime soon.
I will say that since CT popularised them, they appear to have become the go-to movement for weak lifters who want a short cut to the “look of power”.
I mean there’s no reason to cut such a short quote short to make it sound the way you want to(well, I mean that’s the reason, but it’s a shitty thing to do).
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
Some basic stuff. But why would anyone care about doing high pulls anyway. Not a great exercise choice for anything really.[/quote]
“why would anyone care” is indeed in his full statement. Multiple people addressed why some people would care, they just may not be the average(or even a very high majority of) lifter.
Just adding some intellectual honesty to this little ‘debate.’
[quote]red04 wrote:
I mean there’s no reason to cut such a short quote short to make it sound the way you want to(well, I mean that’s the reason, but it’s a shitty thing to do).
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
Some basic stuff. But why would anyone care about doing high pulls anyway. Not a great exercise choice for anything really.[/quote]
“why would anyone care” is indeed in his full statement. Multiple people addressed why some people would care, they just may not be the average(or even a very high majority of) lifter.
Just adding some intellectual honesty to this little ‘debate.’[/quote]
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
Some basic stuff. But why would anyone care about doing high pulls anyway. Not a great exercise choice for anything really.[/quote]
How is correcting a portion of a statement which I perceive to have been made as a result of misunderstanding the original quote “intellectually dishonest”, when the first portion of the statement has already included the part I allegedly “cut short”?
Seriously, just go back to calling people out on their pants size.
Clearly, performing high pulls till the cows come home is the key to getting huge traps like Dorian/Ronnie while packing a pant size under 30!
[quote]dt79 wrote:
How is correcting a portion of a statement which I perceive to have been made as a result of misunderstanding the original quote “intellectually dishonest”, when the first portion of the statement has already included the part I allegedly “cut short”?
Seriously, just go back to calling people out on their pants size.[/quote]
Dorian has the Yates Row.
I always think of Coleman doing T-Bar rows.
Other guys like quick pulls.
Is the key just pulling your elbows up, while you stand on your feet, upright? Stand up, kinda like a deadlift, lean over a little, and pull your shoulder blades together. Do which ever one you like, but do one. If progress slows down, or you get bored, try a different one.
If you’re fast, but weak, do some heavy t-bar rows with a pause.
If you’re strong, but flat footed and slow, learn high pulls.
Got no rhomboids? Try Yates rows.
Lower back is sore, jump on the chest supported row.
[quote]OldOgre wrote:
Dude, is that your arm in your avi or did you photo shop a picture of a hand onto a leg? Nice.
I also want the OP to tell us why they suck. [/quote]
It’s my arm but perspective helps a lot (phone was close to upper arm whereas forearm/hand is going away from it).
[quote]OldOgre wrote:
Here it is for real…
[photo]40997[/photo]
Pants size = 36
Traps = They’re real and they’re spectacular
[quote]Aopocetx wrote:
[quote]OldOgre wrote:
Here it is for real…
[photo]40997[/photo][/quote]
Those are my real arms in my avi. Not only am I half & half, I also have unbelievable shoulder mobility.