I haven't done that but I've done 100 mg/day dromostanolone (Masteron) enanthate and both 100 and 200 mg/week testosterone propionate with it and liked it.
I have little doubt that kicking the testosterone up to 500-750 mg/week would very substantially improve the effectiveness and still would be quite reasonable in terms of side effects. I would add an AI at that point.
The first time I tried this I confused the matter by taking HCG as well and drove my LH to essentially zero as a result, despite what must have been a moderate androgen level and low-normal estrogen level. HCG itself has a suppressive effect on LH, so I think that is the explanation for that outcome.
On a later occasion, 15 mg of Masteron daily and nothing else gave mid-normal LH. It would be good to establish what the ceiling might be, but I don't have it.
I have not found or heard of anything to be an effective bridge besides GH (which I do not use) or GH peptides, and those really just cover up some of the symptoms of low androgens.
Basically a combo of GHRP-6, letro, nolva and 5mg of dbol once a week on days when I HAD to have it. was the best I have found for a quick recovery, just drop the dbol after 4 weeks, its a crutch for use on Max Effort days. The dbol probably delays recovery lightly but not to a measurable extent.
I do somewhat regular blood work, and once I get to a "normal" feeling, I confirm with blood work, I always see to feel and be confirmed as normal at about the same time, the dbol at 5mg/WEEK likely has almost no effect on recovery.
Morning 5mg dbol everyday or even 3 times a week seems to however, noticeably, even only 15mg/WEEK slows down FULL recovery by almost 2 weeks in my experience, even using letro for estrogen control.
No combinations of short halflife orals, winny, var, dbol, even played with primo, no usage of HCG into the PCT no matter the timing or AI I played with, and no usage of even super low dose short ester test or even suspension is helpful in the slightest. All slows you down noticeably.
Everything just slows down recovery or causes little crashes that are more harmful than the briding voodoo has benefits.
Ive yet to play with SARMs but I assume they are likely not that helpful, and current research seems to say that many of the newer ones cause eye problems and some strange issues.
GH is too expensive and tricky for most of us to use properly in a bridge, and too costly to "waste" its use without AAS along side.
But GHRP-6 is a miracle worker, I can hold even most of my tren strength with it.
Which if any of you play with tren you know is next to impossible.
Just DONT run out of peptide, if your off for about 3 days in the PCT your strength will crash as it normally does.
The peptide's abilities dont seem to "stick with you" very long when your in that fragile state.
Wow Westclock, you sure seem to have tested this a lot! I'll have to look into GHRP-6, as I know very little about it.
I did a "stasis", i.e. 100mg/week for 5 weeks with masteron before going totally off, and felt pretty damn good overall, but tendon issues in both upper and lower body prevented me from training with any intensity or frequency, even more so while totally off. Yet I didn't lose too much mass. Sometimes I wonder if barely training was the key to that but it doesn't make much sense...
I hope it's not the masteron who caused the tendon problems, as otherwise it seems a great way to go off, or for those who blast and cruise.
Yes. The commonly accepted method for holding your gains in the PCT is to "take it easy" on the volume.
Ill outline basically how I operate coming off and into the PCT:
I taper off all my long ester drugs, drop orals, come off even short ester stronger androgens like mast or tren, and start running prop ED at 500mg per week.
My Test E will taper itself and my overall levels due to halflife when I stop injecting it, and its residual mg's will combine with the props 500mg/week steady injects and slowly bring me down over the course of the first weeks from 1200 mg test/week in an incredibly gradual taper that is still on the higher end of the spectrum test wise, but certainly just a little more than half of what it was.
I start injecting in the second week of my "taper" with only 250mg/week of prop as the test E ester clears completely, so I taper incredibly gradually till only 250mg of test P is remaining without the need to inject different amounts of test P everyday or that sort of thing, its simply 500mg/week the first week, then 250mg/week the second week, straight amounts, elegant way to taper test in my opinion using the test E you were already shooting to do so.
I taper the AI down as the test goes down, drop my HCG completely a day out...and frontload the SERM a day before the Test P clears.
As soon as I come off the test completely its gone in about 2 days and at very low levels by the first day and the PCT officially begins with stable test levels, fully functional balls due to HCG, which is also gone as to not surpress, frontloaded SERM for LH, running GH peptides to keep anabolism high end and strength high without androgen levels, and running low dose letro to boost test and control any estrogen issues completely in conjunction with the SERM.
Keep your weights high, dont force brutal sets because you cant recover from them, but keep your training weights as close to cycle as you can within reason.
But drop the volume considerably.
Your body does not have the androgen levels to sustain the crazy pounding you put it through on cycle, but if you tell it "lift this or die" it can manage the same weights for say 2-3 reps instead of 5.
Dont force those last two reps and start to kill your workouts, just keep it simple.
My workouts drop probably close to a third of the volume out in the PCT, but the workouts take just as long since my rest breaks go up by about 50%.
I rest about 7 minutes between sets no matter if I feel I need to or not, full recovery, and then I drop the last few reps out of the heavy sets.
Lets say Im doing 5x5 with a warm up as well.
Generally 2 moderate work sets, 2 heavy, and 1 super heavy. with the warm up being 1 set of 8 light, and 1 set of 5 light.
Off cycle, it would be 8 warm up reps light, 5 warm up a little light, then 3 moderate, 1 heavy but with only 3 reps, and 1 super heavy but only 2 reps.
The majority of my worksets get a little lighter, and I drop volume out of the heaviest sets, but keep all the weights the same.
You coast through the PCT maintaining this level and not letting it drop from that point.
Keep your cals high, dont worry about a little fat gain its only gonna be 5 pounds or so, and the loss of some the of water from the cycle will make you look thinner usually overall even if you put on a tiny bit of fat in the PCT, its worth it to hold that muscle, and you can burn that off with ease next cycle or once your balls are ticking at full speed agian in 4-5 weeks.
No cardio at all, plenty of sleep, no alcohol at all in the PCT, id rather drink and party on cycle than in the PCT.
After about 2 weeks Im feeling through the "slump" and feel fine agian, but not back to "strong" just fine. I start to taper off my prolactin support drugs (which I run through the PCT for test, sex drive, and GH boost)
At about week 4 I like to get blood work to make sure nothing is HORRIBLY wrong and will need to be corrected, I should be nearly off the dopamine agonist by this point.
Letro stays, I do not come off low dose letro.
Then about 4 weeks I feel comfortable increasing my workouts VERY close to the same levels as on cycle, just with longer rest periods and a rep dropped of here and there.
About 6 weeks and Im at full speed, I will be disappointed if Im not where I was on cycle, and at week 7 or so I will start pushing for natural gains again, and usually I make some progress even at my level of strength and development...as honestly Im still young enough to make headway on my own. I should be off my peptides by now I like to come off of them for a few weeks, even though they should be safe year round, I like to be completely "clean" cept the letro before final blood works.
I get final blood work to confirm and just keep chugging like I always do.
Generally will run peptides sporadically as budget and whim will allow; at this point to boost me till I get to my next cycle.
I set up my next cycle, plan it all out, get my drugs all in place, PCT, ancillaries, etc, put it all in a nice little box, make my cycle calendar for injections, write up some goals, get all my pins.
And wait eagerly for about 15 weeks till I can run again. Cycling peptides intermittently as I go.
This is my life with steroids, its sort of complex, but less so than what many guys are doing, and its a bit costly due to peptides and long term letro usages, but nothing out of the ordinary for our lifestyle. I seem to be doing quite well, Im stronger and faster and pretty good sized for not being much of a "mass oriented" lifter and considering I refuse to play with actual GH (mostly due to cost, not safety) or insulin (safety) or some of the more risky drugs , almost no, injuries or other issues, stable emotionally, etc.
Basically the cheapest possible way to completely cover all the basis, and do everything right and smart in my opinion. No long term suppression, FULL recovery ASAP, no GH suppression and feedback to deal with, no thyroid vodoo, no insulin usage for safety and simplicity.
Certainly adding a LITTLE insulin in would make this PCT better, and I played around with it on one cycle, but I did not feel it was worth it to myself, although tremendously effective... I simply do not wish to play with that.
Bill if you have any thoughts I would absolutely love to hear them, Ive been doing this for a while, minus the GHRP-6 which I was only somewhat recently introduced to, but it is a lovely addition in my opinion.
I think this PCT is effective, cheap, and simple, and would serve most users extremely well as it really is quite simple in practice and even a beginner could easily follow it.
If anyone is interested and it there seems to be nothing amiss with it, I can edit it, make it a little easier to read, and put in all the dosages for the SERM, AI, GHRP-6 and prolactin agonist (I use pramipexole) to make this easier to follow and for people to experiment with.
Yes, this is exactly it: principally referring to the training but the ancillary advice is I believe entirely fine also.
The only reason I'm adding to it is that sometimes a briefer statement drives the key things home more strongly:
1) Large reduction in volume until natural T is back to normal, and then at that point go for good natural volume, not the steroid volume
2) Still use the heavy weight.
3) Don't go for the frying-the-nervous-system extreme last reps. If let's say you got 5 reps as an very hardcore but successful effort during the cycle, a top set of 3 good, strong reps -- not painfully slow but good quality reps -- is perfectly fine now.
It really is possible to hold on to the strength that is gained.
Now, it is true that if one is talking about a very lengthy period of time (many months) and as gotten well above the muscular weight that he can hold naturally, then yes there will be a slow slide as contractile muscle protein is lost.
But, and particularly with ancillary techniques such as Westclock describes, that slide can be very slow, and even without them should be almost negligble in terms of effect on strength in the first few weeks.
Where there is a real effect that one may choose to account for is that in some lifts, water weight also helps, and where that water weight is lost, it's fair enough to drop the weight SLIGHTLY to maintain an equal real (in some sense) load on the muscle. This drop is no greater than the percentage drop in bodyweight and may be less than that. In many cases there is no need for this drop at all. Generally, aim for the same top work weight.
Thanks Westclock, that's as detailed a post I've seen on the subject!
I've got little experience myself, but doing Prisoner's "stasis/taper" has been good for me. Well, mostly a 4-5 week stasis at 100mg/week, taper of 1-2 weeks. He suggets 6 weeks stasis/6 weeks taper but I guess I want to go off. I add Nolva in the taper/first 1-2 weeks off as my reasoning is it makes up for the shorter protocol.
I end all long esters 2 weeks before doing the stasis, and use orals in those 2 weeks.
No depression, fairly good libido (though nothing like on cycle!). I stay around the same weight but I do gain fat/lose muscle, and strangely look like I weight less.
But I've had tendon issues and acne back/shoulder. A pimple or two every 7-10 days. So no pizza backne, but still pretty visible and I hate it.