T Nation

High Levels of E2 Being OK

Listened some podcasts (Jay Campbell’s one) the other day where they spoke about higher E2 levels not really being the problem that everyone thinks it is - what are the more experienced members thoughts on this?

Podcasts below:

Depends on how each individual feels. Like all things; too high isn’t optimal and can come with issues, same as low.

speaks about high levels being cardio protective.

This forum is filled with countless men who have great difficulty controlling estrogen, anxiety, soft erections, lowered libido and mind fogginess because estrogen is out of control do to being obese or naturally being a high converter.

We know high testosterone doesn’t work for everyone and can throw RBC and hemoglobin levels out of range producing symptoms, so how can high estrogen work for everyone if high testosterone doesn’t?

Common sense prevails here, you can’t have a cookie cutter protocols for everyone. We know estrogen makes a woman more emotional, high estrogen and low testosterone it’s what makes a woman a woman. Anyone who has had estrogen high has experience excessive watery eyes, it’s not high testosterone causing the crying spells because that would make you behave like a man.

High estrogen in relation to your testosterone will make some behave like a woman.

AI’s are bad, no doubt, but what’s high estrogen is going to be different for everyone in the same way what’s high testosterone is going to be individual.

My Free T is supraphysiological at only 500 Total T, other men will need 800-1000 ng/dL to equal the same Free T.

If you don’t have any symptoms, you don’t have any problems.

1 Like

Yeah I just listened to this. I have decided to drop the AI and reduced my dose, see if this brings my E2 down.

2 Likes

Smart move

2 Likes

I am considering replacing AI with DIM. What’s your thoughts ?

Have you listened to the podcasts?

1 Like

It makes sense to me that if you are replacing natural t production with exogenous T, your system will shut down it’s own t production and will find the balance with estrogen as it did when you were younger. When I think about this topic it seems if you are just interested in getting back to what is normal healthy T levels for you age then an AI is actually a bad thing. If you are a professional body builder or athlete and want to crank it up to unnaturally high levels for performance gains etc. then it sort of makes sense but it seems you will be walking a narrower path to find balance.

The key is finding the right dose and in that regard less, if needed, would likely be better for many men if that meant they don’t need another medication to blunt estrogen. I think any guy not doing everything else he needs to be healthy i.e. eating right, keeping weight under control, exercise etc… is of course doing himself no favors.

Based on what I have learned in the last few months and because my estrogen related issues have calmed down 7 weeks into therapy I am going to aim for “no AI”.

3 Likes

I have listened to the podcasts and I see double standards, one minute they’re all saying break up the shots if having estrogen sides and (lose weight) the next high estrogen is of no consequence. I appreciate and am a big fan of the TOT roundtable even though I see contradictions and double standards.

If there was no consequence from having high estrogen, Dr. Rob Kominiarek wouldn’t go on record stating that he uses AI strategically and for short duration until the situation is under control.

AI’s are bad for estrogen metabolism, it’s why micro doses for short duration is sometimes necessary, but in most cases it is not. It’s why I continue to recommend to those with high estrogen sides to do multiple injections per week, daily if needed.

Most men would rather take an AI than inject EOD or everyday, almost no newcomers are willing to do it, at least not until they experience the AI induced roller coasters.

I can state definitively that since I went to EOD my estrogen related sides have dropped dramatically. This makes sense too. It seems intuitive that a spike in testosterone is more likely to trigger the mechanisms in the body to bring that to heel. A mans testes don’t dump 3x normal daily production of test 2x a week. I’m guessing it’s more a steady production in a healthy, unstressed male.

I don’t mind sticking myself though.

2 Likes

Hormone profiles of younger men look very different than older men, younger men have a greater frequency of peaks in a 24 hour period, an older man has a flatter hormone profile (Nebido). Daily injections is still far away from a natural profile, but it’s as close as you can get without going on tropicals.

If only others didn’t mind frequent injections, it’s definitely prolonging their suffering.

1 Like

yeah I agree with what you are saying. I have recently started and am doing EOD (ED for HCG) and I thought it was going to be a pain, but its not too bad. Not sure I could do ED though but it still might be a better solution than an AI.

Is quite hard to get everything dialed in.

As long as you’re using 29 gauge insulin syringes, it’s a lot easier to do more injections. I believe all young men should do testing while optimal because if the time comes for them to hop on TRT (most likely will), they will know what range to target.

Since discontinuing anastrozole I have seen E2 increase from the mid 20s to 55/79 (both tests). My cholesterol dropped from 200 to 164. It’s hovered around 200 for as long as I can remember. My joints are noticeably better. Sexual function is better. I can not think of any adverse effect. My total and free test numbers are ~900/200. I am actually thinking of running them higher to see if that would increase E2 and E2 benefits.

However, this is n=1. Back in the day, when we were all doing AAS, not too many guys had E2 issues and we were using high (at that time) doses of multiple items. I know a lot of guys on testosterone, most of them underground. By far, most of them take weekly injections without aromatase inhibitors and many of them have never even heard of them. They are doing very well.

There is evidence estradiol is cardioprotective. It’s good for a lot of things. If I was new to TRT, I would make a concerted effort to go without aromatase inhibitors. If I was overweight or obese, I would run test up very high. The higher the better. That will decrease visceral fat and that is cardioprotective.

This is essentially what it notes on the podcast. When my e2 is higher I’ve noticed my HDL is also higher.

My first PCP put me on a T mono(nothing but T no AI no HCG) program.
In 7 months my nipples were on fire and they were leaking water. My pcp said gyno was right around the corner. Here is what he put in my med file.

Tmono

Here was his blood tests to check my TT/FT/E2/prolactin

T-E2

prolactin

The reason my records say resolved was I fired him as my TRT doctor but kept him as my PCP went to Defy and within 6 weeks My TT was 1100 FT 33 E2 35 prolactin 8 My defy protocol was 150/wk .125 anastrozole x3/wk 800iu HCG/wk.

Over 3 years now I have my protocol fine tuned enough I no longer need the AI. But in the early days it saved me from needing Gyno surgery. If you guys are considering dropping your AI you should consider adding prolactin to your blood test. Over range E2 and prolactin is what gives you gyno so be careful.

Very well said. Systemlord hit it right in the money. I am going through this right now.
This really surprised me alot. When I was “younger” key word 19,20. I would run 400-600mg of test Ethan along with the same amount of eq 4-600mg each week. One shot a week or two at the most and had zero estrogen effects. Maybe the quality vet gear I used to get was so diluted it was all oil. Im wondering now. Cause 200mg of pharmaceutical grade test Ethan a week for 3 weeks rocked my system hard.