High-Frequency ME Training?

climbon,

I get what you are saying about the factorization. I am probably only looking to do this with sprint workouts where the drop-offs come a lot slower.

I found out the hard-way about erring on the side of caution with the ME-type work. Earlier this year I was doing too many sets with heavy loads and dropping off way too much and it was hurting my progress. Now I’m definitly in better tune and I can usually tell by the last rep of the last set where I’m at.

One question I still have about wave-loading. For instance, say I’m setting a rotation like:

1.) 3RM Deadlifts
2.) Jump Squats

And I want to wave-load the jump squats. Do I want to go something like this:

1.) Deads
-rest
2.) Jump Squats w/ 45#
-rest
1.) Deads
-rest
2.) Jump Squats w/ 75#
-rest and repeat

or should it be the other way around (75 then 45) or does it not matter.

or would this work better?

1.) Deads
-rest
2.) Jump Squats w/45# for half the reps, then jump squats w/75# for the other half
-rest and repeat

Have you experimented with wave-loading like that?

What is AREG and drop offs? Can some one give me a site or something to read up on this?

I’m with EL Animal, whats Areg and drop off % and such.

I like the idea of “ramping” up your intensity in the week and etc.

Could someone explain factorization to me? Or if theres a site I can read up on it? Sounds interesting.

I too would like to find a way to increase ME Frequency, in order to emphasize it in a give block.

Are you guys using an Upper/Lower approach split, followed by assistance work? I know that maybe from a total body approach, one could work a day where Upperbody Strength is done, and Lowerbody Mass is worked too. Vice Versa on the following training day.

Any info on factorization, drop offs, and Areg would be greatly appreciated.

-The Truth

There is an article written by Kelly Baggett. He’s a little more… I guess “traditional” would be the word, but he does a great job of explaining the basics of the Inno-Sport system.

I had a couple more questions, if you wouldn’t mind answering them.
Thanks,
-The Truth

truth,

You can find KB’s article on inno-sport.net under article archives and miscellaneous. It’s entitled “Inno-Sport Training Basics.” If you haven’t read it yet, read it. Then read it again. Then you will probably want to read it one more time. That article will really teach you a lot.

Now to try to answer some of your questions. The basic premise of factorization is to take the work you would do on one day and spread it out over the course of a few days. For instance, say you were capable of doing 5 sets of 10 reps at a certain weight. Instead of doing 5 sets of 10 on Monday and another 5 sets of 10 on Thursday, you would do 2 sets on Monday, 1 set on Tuesday and 2 sets on Wednesday, or something like that. That’s a really vague description, but you will need to understand a little more of the principle’s behind AREG before you get into factorization.

The basic Inno-Sport template usually splits into upper and lower, but it doesn’t really matter. Since you are using auto-regulatory principles, the volume and frequency is determined by your template. Read that article because it will explain the basics very well.

Feel free to keep asking questions.

so AREG stand for auto-regulatory but what are drop offs?

I’ll be sure to hit up that article later tonight1

Brendan,

Read that article whenever you get the chance, all of your questions will be answered- and then you will have 10,000 more!

I have nothing to add to this but thanks to those who have contributed.

Good thread.

  • Mark

Factorization would not work well with the example given by jtrinsey because the work integer (i.e. the work capacity) is still very low. Factorization would most likely not be done for several years unless you are some kind of freak with an enormous work capacity. Factorization is used when workload is extremely high and would require a huge time investment. In this case, it would be better to factorize work because you could work multiple qualities. For example, you are doing sprints 2x/wk as part of your lower body workout. But, you are able to perform 20+ sprints before drop off is reached. Do you think you will be able to do much else for lower body on those days? Probably not because you will be tired and will have spent the vast majority of your session on the sprints. Here is where factorization would come in handy. You could perform sprints daily and still perform 1 lower body session every 4 days where you can work on other qualities/exercises.

For example; perform 10 sprints day one coupled with other lower body exercises, 6 sprints day 2 with upper body, 8 sprints day 3 only, 4 sprints day 4 only; then repeat. (The previous example assumes that you are able to perform 28 sprints in one workout before drop off is achieved, that number was selected at random.) I hope that helps to clear up factorization. It is only for people who are advanced and/or have an extreme work capacity. Otherwise, you are better off using AREG principles.

AREG is auto-regulatory training. It uses drop offs to determine volume. You normally limit each exercise session to 2-5 exercises. You will cycle through each exercise before returning to the first exercise. You will determine your best performance for each particular exercise on that training day. You then select a drop off percentage based on how often you would like to workout by applying the rule of thirds. If you choose to use a 6% drop off, you will take 1/3 which is 2. This means you will require 2 days of rest to be able to repeat the workout. However, you will require another 2 days to allow for supercompensation to occur. So, with a 6% drop off, you will train a given muscle/quality/exercise every 4 days. (You can workout more frequently by using a lower drop off %)

Example:
A1) back squats 2 reps at 400# (stay at 2 reps but drop weight 6%, then do as many sets as you can at 2 reps. When you cannot do 2 reps you have achieved drop off) 3 sets of 2 reps at 375#

A2) GHR 5 reps at 50#, can continue with 50# doing sets of 3-4 reps (this is another way of determining drop off). When that is no longer possible, drop off is achieved.

Hopefully those examples help to answer some of your questions. Refer to the website that was mentioned previously and read all of the articles. You can also buy the book from the website. Those resources will help you to understand the system. Then you need to design a few programs working on your weaknesses. Then you will start to figure the system out. Be sure not to try doing all the advanced exercises/techniques right away. Most likely you do not need them and will benefit more from keeping things simple.

climbon,

I know that usually factorization is only used when work capacity integers exceed the frequency scale, but I really don’t see any reason why they COULDN’T be used with a low work capacity integer.

Is there really any difference between factorizing a low work capacity or going 3 days in a row with 2% drop-off?

My only thought on that would be that an athlete with a low work capacity would have a lot more variability in work capacity than a more advanced athlete with a higher work capacity so it might be hard to predict for the less-qualified athlete.

J,

I like the idea of “Factoring” and spreading out the ME work.

I think you checked out my “Conjugate Sequence System” thread, and one of my goals was to higher the use of ME in a given week to emphasize it during an ME Block.

During an ME block, I see 2 possible splits. Upper/Lower with 2 ME days
or TBT approach with 3 ME Days

A total body would look something like this:
Monday

  1. Bench Press 5x3
    A1. CGPB 4x6
    A2. Row Variation 4x6
  2. Squat 5x3
    B1. Split Squats 4x6
    B2. GHR 4x6

I would “wave” the intensity and change the rep ranges. Something like 85-90-95%. For the assistance work, I want to use an undulating scheme 4x6,3x8,?

It looks somewhat taxing. Any ideas,thoughts or suggestions would be great.

Thanks,
-The Truth

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
climbon,

I know that usually factorization is only used when work capacity integers exceed the frequency scale, but I really don’t see any reason why they COULDN’T be used with a low work capacity integer.

Is there really any difference between factorizing a low work capacity or going 3 days in a row with 2% drop-off?

My only thought on that would be that an athlete with a low work capacity would have a lot more variability in work capacity than a more advanced athlete with a higher work capacity so it might be hard to predict for the less-qualified athlete. [/quote]

There is a difference between the two. For factorized work, technically you are not reaching drop off until day 4 as given in my previous example. Using a higher frequency, you are reaching drop every day. As far as which one is better it will depend on your goals. Using AREG will lead to an increased work capacity that will lead to factorization.

Think of DB’s example of baseball pitchers. Do you need to be like the closer who can stay at ME for a few throws(/sets)? Or do you need to be like the starter who can stay just below ME for many many throws (/sets)?

I can’t personally respond on results expected as I do not train anyone. So I do not have any data to compare the 2 methods or data to compare elite vs. novice athletes.

So basically are saying that factorization builds prime capacity better and the high-frequency low drop-offs would build pinnacle capacity better?

I am not sure if you would want to use one to build a certain quality better than the other. That would be a good question for Brad Nuttall. However, AREG can help build pinnacle or prime capacity. Focusing on each at diiferent times would most likely lead to the best gains in terms of overall work capacity.

Can anyone comment on my previous post?

Thanks,
-The Truth

climbon,

I gotcha. I’m basically hoping this thread stays alive long enough that Brad will chime in again. I’ve read the older DB threads that he’s chimed in enough to memorized them. I know in one of the Q&A’s that DB said he’d push prime capacity over pinnacle capacity for most athletes and that’s usually what I train for.

truth,

That looks like too much ME work to recover from. Remember, if you are increasing frequency, you have to lower total volume. You might want to wave-load towards the end of the week, something like this:

Monday- 2 x 3 @ 85% of your 3RM
Wednesday- 2 x 3 @ 90% of your 3RM
Friday- 2 x 3 @ 100% of your 3RM

I dunno, I could be pulling that out of my ass too. I’m not really sure if that’s exactly how I’d do it, but something to thing about.

jtrinsey,

Yeah I kinda figured. But what I meant was, maybe 3x3 for monday (85%), 3x2(90%), and then maybe something like 3-2-1 for Friday.

As for the legs, I may not necc. use those rep schemes, maybe something less intense, but intense enough to invoke strength gains. 5x5 or something.

Thanks,
-The Truth

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
climbon,
I gotcha. I’m basically hoping this thread stays alive long enough that Brad will chime in again. I’ve read the older DB threads that he’s chimed in enough to memorized them. I know in one of the Q&A’s that DB said he’d push prime capacity over pinnacle capacity for most athletes and that’s usually what I train for.

truth,

That looks like too much ME work to recover from. Remember, if you are increasing frequency, you have to lower total volume. You might want to wave-load towards the end of the week, something like this:

Monday- 2 x 3 @ 85% of your 3RM
Wednesday- 2 x 3 @ 90% of your 3RM
Friday- 2 x 3 @ 100% of your 3RM

I dunno, I could be pulling that out of my ass too. I’m not really sure if that’s exactly how I’d do it, but something to thing about.[/quote]

I do not think the ability to tolerate factorised work only depends on workcapatisie. You can train your muscles every time you want. The only thing that needs recovery is your nervous system. You could do a lot of factorysed work one week and than deload frequency and volumenin the next or you do not train to failure every time (60% rule , fatigue manegment techniks…)

If you never train to failure eat right and sleep all day ever body can train 6-12 times a week(fullbody workouts). The only important think is that you do not do more work than normaly ( callculate work per week!)

I Bench press with 80%-95% of 1rm for 50 to 100 reps a week. If I would do this in one workout I would die…

[quote]Mr.Rock wrote:
I do not think the ability to tolerate factorised work only depends on workcapatisie. You can train your muscles every time you want. The only thing that needs recovery is your nervous system. You could do a lot of factorysed work one week and than deload frequency and volumenin the next or you do not train to failure every time (60% rule , fatigue manegment techniks…)

If you never train to failure eat right and sleep all day ever body can train 6-12 times a week(fullbody workouts). The only important think is that you do not do more work than normaly ( callculate work per week!)

I Bench press with 80%-95% of 1rm for 50 to 100 reps a week. If I would do this in one workout I would die… [/quote]

What you are doing is not truly factorized work. Again, as part of DB’s system, factorized work is only integrated when your work integer exceeds your frequency scale. You can train more frequently using a lower dropoff percentage. But there is a big difference between the two as part of DB’s system.

For factorized work, you are not achieving drop off at each workout. You are achieving drop off at each workout when just performing high frequency workouts. CNS fatigue is not as much an issue with factorized work as it is when using a lower drop off percentage so you can train more frequently.