High Estrogen Post PCT

Pharma / TRT
1

hi there

ive recently completed the Test Taper as well as clomid therapy. Ive lost most if not all of my gains. The cycle was deca, test e, dbol …ive also tried to incorporate HGH here and there to try and save my gains. PCT was Clomid and HGH…I did also use HCG during cycle.

Dbol was only used for 2 weeks to kick start the cycle, i used proviron for 1 week while on the cycle (experienced hairloss so I stopped it) as well caber while on the deca to keep prolactin sides down.

I got my blood tests back today:
My Prolactin levels are slightly low and my estrogen level is higher than the base reference levels.

Im wondering if I should start clomid/nolva therapy again? Any advice please?

2

any replies guys would be much appreciated. In the interim i have started Nolvadex to bring down my oestrogen (100mg yesterday, then 20mg for 10 days, and 10mg for 10 days).

let me know if Im on the right track.

3

How long was the cycle, what were the dosages on the deca and test, what was your original pct protocol (mg per day, which week, etc.)?

Nolva should help reduce your existing estrogen levels.

IMO test taper isnt the best system, and i mean who the hell can actually measure 5 ml of test with a 3 ml barrel?

4

hi Arem.

yep i agree with you regarding the test taper…i initially thought it worked and then 3 weeks ago the shit hit the fan and my gains were gone with the piss lol (water gains)

My cycle was as follows:

Sustanon for 4 weeks (800mg in the first week, then 300mg per week in the last 3 weeks)

Dbol for 5 weeks (sorry i see i mentioned 2 weeks before…only relooked at my cycle now). - 30mg ED for 1 week, 40mg ED for 2 weeks, 30mg ED for 2 weeks.

Deca for 10 weeks (400mg a week)

Test E from week 5 at 600mg a week for 8 weeks, tapered to 100mg for 6 weeks, then 80mg, 60mg, 50mg, 40mg, 30mg, 20mg in weeks following.

PCT

i used Caber 1mg a week for the duration i was on Deca

HCG was done in weeks 8, 9, 10 (week 1: 2000ius on monday, 1000ius on wednesday, 500 ius on friday, WEEK2: 1000ius on monday, 500ius on wednesday, 500ius on friday, week3: 250ius on monday, 250ius on wednesday, 250ius on friday)

Clomid therapy was started at the end of the 100mg a week test taper…just when i started the 80mg a week of Test E - around week 19. It was 60mg on day one, then 40mg ED for 10 days, 20mg ED for 10 days, 10mgs ED for 10 days).

The gains were pretty awsome but some where along the line things went wrong or from what ive read my system was shutdown so much due to the deca, that its really difficult to recover and hence why i lost most of my gains.

let me know your thoughts.

thanks

5

[quote]Arem wrote:
How long was the cycle, what were the dosages on the deca and test, what was your original pct protocol (mg per day, which week, etc.)?

Nolva should help reduce your existing estrogen levels.

IMO test taper isnt the best system, and i mean who the hell can actually measure 5 ml of test with a 3 ml barrel? [/quote]

Youve tried the stasis/taper?

And why would anyone use a 3ml barrel and not an insulin syringe?

6

[quote]cybercom8 wrote:
hi there

ive recently completed the Test Taper as well as clomid therapy. Ive lost most if not all of my gains. The cycle was deca, test e, dbol …ive also tried to incorporate HGH here and there to try and save my gains. PCT was Clomid and HGH…I did also use HCG during cycle.

Dbol was only used for 2 weeks to kick start the cycle, i used proviron for 1 week while on the cycle (experienced hairloss so I stopped it) as well caber while on the deca to keep prolactin sides down.

I got my blood tests back today:
My Prolactin levels are slightly low and my estrogen level is higher than the base reference levels.

Im wondering if I should start clomid/nolva therapy again? Any advice please?[/quote]

Umm what was your free T level befoer the cycle and what is it now? Relevant information, no?

And why did you use hCG during pct?

Did you actually do the stasis/taper as laid out in the sticky? How did you set it up and how did you add the clomid to it?

7

[quote]Arem wrote:

Nolva should help reduce your existing estrogen levels.

[/quote]

It ABSOLUTELY will NOT.

Nolvadex will prevent E2 from binding to the mammary gland (amongst other things) but will not affect systemic E2 levels. This is very basic stuff.

1 Like
8

The taper is great if you have little aromatisation from external test. It also depends on your natural test levels. 100mg a week is close to natural levels for some, but for others it can be too high. If you happen to be one of those people, then you may get aromatisation and elevated E2 levels from that dose. If that happens, and you are not taking an AI or using a SERM during that time, you are effectively eliminating the whole reason for doing the taper, since estrogen is much more suppressive than testosterone. I’m sure there are plenty of TRT patients on here who can tell you what a difference a small change in E2 levels can make.

Whether you should do anything should depend on your testosterone levels. Are your nuts back up and running? If not, a run with a serm and low dose HCG is worth trying, if they are working then just a serm will do. And do you have comparison bloodwork from before the cycle? One set of results makes it harder to work out the issue.

9

What would you suggest to reduce oestrogen levels? reference levels on the blood tests are between 40 and 130 …mine is sitting at 190.

started Nolva yesterday…should I stop it?

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Arem wrote:

Nolva should help reduce your existing estrogen levels.

[/quote]

It ABSOLUTELY will NOT.

Nolvadex will prevent E2 from binding to the mammary gland (amongst other things) but will not affect systemic E2 levels. This is very basic stuff. [/quote]

10

Good point there massive. My starting Test levels have never been that good. Average i guess.

0.71nmol/l (reference states that anything below 0.23nmol/l is supportive evidence to start Test replacement treatment)…well this is my current test level…will have to dig up my starting test levels before the cycle. Will post this as soon as i find the results.

also my prolactin level is slightly suppressed…im guessing thats from using caber during the cycle?

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
The taper is great if you have little aromatisation from external test. It also depends on your natural test levels. 100mg a week is close to natural levels for some, but for others it can be too high. If you happen to be one of those people, then you may get aromatisation and elevated E2 levels from that dose. If that happens, and you are not taking an AI or using a SERM during that time, you are effectively eliminating the whole reason for doing the taper, since estrogen is much more suppressive than testosterone. I’m sure there are plenty of TRT patients on here who can tell you what a difference a small change in E2 levels can make.

Whether you should do anything should depend on your testosterone levels. Are your nuts back up and running? If not, a run with a serm and low dose HCG is worth trying, if they are working then just a serm will do. And do you have comparison bloodwork from before the cycle? One set of results makes it harder to work out the issue. [/quote]

11

hi Bonez,

yep let me find my starting test levels and will post it.

HCG wasnt used during PCT…it was during the cycle…in week 8,9,10. PCT/clomid only started in week 19 after the 100mg test taper…just when i was starting the 80mg a week taper down to 20mg

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]cybercom8 wrote:
hi there

ive recently completed the Test Taper as well as clomid therapy. Ive lost most if not all of my gains. The cycle was deca, test e, dbol …ive also tried to incorporate HGH here and there to try and save my gains. PCT was Clomid and HGH…I did also use HCG during cycle.

Dbol was only used for 2 weeks to kick start the cycle, i used proviron for 1 week while on the cycle (experienced hairloss so I stopped it) as well caber while on the deca to keep prolactin sides down.

I got my blood tests back today:
My Prolactin levels are slightly low and my estrogen level is higher than the base reference levels.

Im wondering if I should start clomid/nolva therapy again? Any advice please?[/quote]

Umm what was your free T level befoer the cycle and what is it now? Relevant information, no?

And why did you use hCG during pct?

Did you actually do the stasis/taper as laid out in the sticky? How did you set it up and how did you add the clomid to it? [/quote]

12

isnt it a bit of a mission to push oil through an insulin syringe? Also an Insulin syringe will only do a subcutaneous injection and not an intramuscular injection unless one does it in the deltoid or abdominal or a very lean area.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Arem wrote:
How long was the cycle, what were the dosages on the deca and test, what was your original pct protocol (mg per day, which week, etc.)?

Nolva should help reduce your existing estrogen levels.

IMO test taper isnt the best system, and i mean who the hell can actually measure 5 ml of test with a 3 ml barrel? [/quote]

Youve tried the stasis/taper?

And why would anyone use a 3ml barrel and not an insulin syringe? [/quote]

13

[quote]cybercom8 wrote:
isnt it a bit of a mission to push oil through an insulin syringe? Also an Insulin syringe will only do a subcutaneous injection and not an intramuscular injection unless one does it in the deltoid or abdominal or a very lean area.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Arem wrote:
How long was the cycle, what were the dosages on the deca and test, what was your original pct protocol (mg per day, which week, etc.)?

Nolva should help reduce your existing estrogen levels.

IMO test taper isnt the best system, and i mean who the hell can actually measure 5 ml of test with a 3 ml barrel? [/quote]

Youve tried the stasis/taper?

And why would anyone use a 3ml barrel and not an insulin syringe? [/quote]
[/quote]

A mission? No.

IM injections are fine with insulin syringes if you arent fat (which you shouldnt be if using AAS). VG and delts are good spots. A half inch needle is long enough, especially for such a small injection volume.

ANd you dont do IM injections in the abdominals. Please dont try to tell me how to inject things and then say something as ignorant as that.

14

I never do Ab shots anyway :slight_smile: Unless its HGH but thats subcutaneous.

as far as IM Ab shots are concerned…the only time ive actually done that was with VitB12…not juice so its fine for that…but opted for Delt shots later on as the ab ones were a bit painful at times.

nevertheless i mostly only do Quad shots… this is why the insulin syringe wouldnt have worked…nor do i have access to 1 inch insulin needles.

but now we are completely straying from what ive asked. Using a 3ml syringe i was still able to semi accurately get the correct amounts for the taper … i think the problem more lies in the PCT…and as you and Massive mentioned - my starting Test levels might have been low to start off with…so 100mg a week could have been suppressive.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]cybercom8 wrote:
isnt it a bit of a mission to push oil through an insulin syringe? Also an Insulin syringe will only do a subcutaneous injection and not an intramuscular injection unless one does it in the deltoid or abdominal or a very lean area.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Arem wrote:
How long was the cycle, what were the dosages on the deca and test, what was your original pct protocol (mg per day, which week, etc.)?

Nolva should help reduce your existing estrogen levels.

IMO test taper isnt the best system, and i mean who the hell can actually measure 5 ml of test with a 3 ml barrel? [/quote]

Youve tried the stasis/taper?

And why would anyone use a 3ml barrel and not an insulin syringe? [/quote]
[/quote]

A mission? No.

IM injections are fine with insulin syringes if you arent fat (which you shouldnt be if using AAS). VG and delts are good spots. A half inch needle is long enough, especially for such a small injection volume.

ANd you dont do IM injections in the abdominals. Please dont try to tell me how to inject things and then say something as ignorant as that. [/quote]

15

[quote]cybercom8 wrote:
I never do Ab shots anyway :slight_smile: Unless its HGH but thats subcutaneous.

as far as IM Ab shots are concerned…the only time ive actually done that was with VitB12…not juice so its fine for that…but opted for Delt shots later on as the ab ones were a bit painful at times.

nevertheless i mostly only do Quad shots… this is why the insulin syringe wouldnt have worked…nor do i have access to 1 inch insulin needles.

but now we are completely straying from what ive asked. Using a 3ml syringe i was still able to semi accurately get the correct amounts for the taper … i think the problem more lies in the PCT…and as you and Massive mentioned - my starting Test levels might have been low to start off with…so 100mg a week could have been suppressive.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]cybercom8 wrote:
isnt it a bit of a mission to push oil through an insulin syringe? Also an Insulin syringe will only do a subcutaneous injection and not an intramuscular injection unless one does it in the deltoid or abdominal or a very lean area.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Arem wrote:
How long was the cycle, what were the dosages on the deca and test, what was your original pct protocol (mg per day, which week, etc.)?

Nolva should help reduce your existing estrogen levels.

IMO test taper isnt the best system, and i mean who the hell can actually measure 5 ml of test with a 3 ml barrel? [/quote]

Youve tried the stasis/taper?

And why would anyone use a 3ml barrel and not an insulin syringe? [/quote]
[/quote]

A mission? No.

IM injections are fine with insulin syringes if you arent fat (which you shouldnt be if using AAS). VG and delts are good spots. A half inch needle is long enough, especially for such a small injection volume.

ANd you dont do IM injections in the abdominals. Please dont try to tell me how to inject things and then say something as ignorant as that. [/quote]
[/quote]

Yes, it does seem like that might be the case, your natural test levels do seem relatively low I believe. That’s the problem with miligram dosage reccomendations for cycles etc. They are not one size fits all, and should really be given in mg/kg. For cycle dosages it doesn’t make a huge difference unless you are talking about people at both ends of the weight spectrum. For taper dosages which need to be very accurate, the variation due to bodyweight is likely much more significant.

Stick with nolva for a couple of months and see how you get on.

16

Thanks Massive…

Regarding my balls…well i was assuming with my test levels pretty average that my balls even though slightly smaller than usual would be fine. They are slowly coming back but i was considering doing some HCG again. Im just concerned as i heard that too much HCG can desensitize the leydig cells (more at high dosages). And since I did it about 2 months ago would it be safe to do it again…and at what dosages, for how long?

Dont plan on using Nolva for months :slight_smile: …will do it for 3 weeks then at the end of the month get another blood test done to check the my oestrogen levels. I went today to get some testosterone boosting supplements to help get me back on track.

Also I know the rule is - time on = time off. How does this work if ive done the test taper that was like 24 weeks. Do I have to wait 24 weeks to go on another cycle?? that would be a bummer.

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]cybercom8 wrote:
I never do Ab shots anyway :slight_smile: Unless its HGH but thats subcutaneous.

as far as IM Ab shots are concerned…the only time ive actually done that was with VitB12…not juice so its fine for that…but opted for Delt shots later on as the ab ones were a bit painful at times.

nevertheless i mostly only do Quad shots… this is why the insulin syringe wouldnt have worked…nor do i have access to 1 inch insulin needles.

but now we are completely straying from what ive asked. Using a 3ml syringe i was still able to semi accurately get the correct amounts for the taper … i think the problem more lies in the PCT…and as you and Massive mentioned - my starting Test levels might have been low to start off with…so 100mg a week could have been suppressive.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]cybercom8 wrote:
isnt it a bit of a mission to push oil through an insulin syringe? Also an Insulin syringe will only do a subcutaneous injection and not an intramuscular injection unless one does it in the deltoid or abdominal or a very lean area.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Arem wrote:
How long was the cycle, what were the dosages on the deca and test, what was your original pct protocol (mg per day, which week, etc.)?

Nolva should help reduce your existing estrogen levels.

IMO test taper isnt the best system, and i mean who the hell can actually measure 5 ml of test with a 3 ml barrel? [/quote]

Youve tried the stasis/taper?

And why would anyone use a 3ml barrel and not an insulin syringe? [/quote]
[/quote]

A mission? No.

IM injections are fine with insulin syringes if you arent fat (which you shouldnt be if using AAS). VG and delts are good spots. A half inch needle is long enough, especially for such a small injection volume.

ANd you dont do IM injections in the abdominals. Please dont try to tell me how to inject things and then say something as ignorant as that. [/quote]
[/quote]

Yes, it does seem like that might be the case, your natural test levels do seem relatively low I believe. That’s the problem with miligram dosage reccomendations for cycles etc. They are not one size fits all, and should really be given in mg/kg. For cycle dosages it doesn’t make a huge difference unless you are talking about people at both ends of the weight spectrum. For taper dosages which need to be very accurate, the variation due to bodyweight is likely much more significant.

Stick with nolva for a couple of months and see how you get on. [/quote]

17

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Arem wrote:

Nolva should help reduce your existing estrogen levels.

[/quote]

It ABSOLUTELY will NOT.

Nolvadex will prevent E2 from binding to the mammary gland (amongst other things) but will not affect systemic E2 levels. This is very basic stuff. [/quote]

You are correct, thanks. As I have never used nolva I had only done very basic reading on it and some information from older articles etc. incorrectly linked its impact on gyno with a reduction in estrogen levels. Thank you for clearing this up for me.