T Nation

High Estrogen Effects (Labs compared to Symptoms)

@dbossa @systemlord

There is a large debate over high estrogen being OK and not having an impact at all. Here is my personal experience with labs and symptom resolution.

To kick start this off a little background on me.

Started TRT using 50mg Twice weekly.

Labs on this protocol had me at:

712 TT
106 PG/Ml Free T (46-226)
Ultra Sensitive E2 22 (<29)

Felt best on this protocol at the end towards trough… high E2 the culprit?? Read on

With these labs I upped dosage to 75 mg Twice weekly… felt good initially but after 4th dosage on new protocol immediately the day after began to feel like shit.

Here is what I felt:

Low mood
Anxiety through the roof (drunk feeling)
Anxiety so bad penis remained contracted flaccid with little blood flow
Low penile sensitivity (harder to orgasm)
Non existent sex drive
Water retention (gained 5lbs)

Armed with this information I decided to have labs done the day after my 75mg injection and on Trough the day of the next injection

results are as follows:

Peak
1368 TT
196 Free T (46-226)
Ultra sensitive E2 64 (<29)

Trough
980 TT
142 Free T (46-226)
Ultra sensitive E2 34 (<29)

Clearly the higher estrogen is the cause of all my symptoms because as soon as my estrogen lowers around TROUGH (estrogen decreased from 64 to 34) symptoms go away. Anxiety gone, penis sensitivity back, libido back, mood better, morning elections are harder as well. This is no coincidence

So @dbossa how is it that the higher estrogen has nothing to do with my symptoms? When my E2 is higher after injection I have symptoms that are replicated with each injection and the common denominator is higher E2 levels…

I always feel symptom resolution when E2 is lower and always feel worse when E2 is higher. Even on my 50 mg 2x weekly protocol. My E2 was 22 then but had to have been closer to 40 during peak (and that is when I felt anxiety, low libido) on the 100mg weekly protocol.

It’s posted on almost every single thread so obviously you don’t read much. Each protocol change requires 6-8 weeks minimum to even start to feel any positive effects of the new dose/protocol. You can expect to feel less than ideal for those first 2 months. You can blame it on estrogen, the boogy monster, anal probe, etc as it doesn’t matter what the problem is because regardless you need to give yourself 2 months before it gets better.

Clearly you aren’t knowledgeable enough to understand that you are overly simplifying things.

If you really truly believed what you are saying then you’d just keep estrogen low and wouldn’t have a need to post here because everything would be perfect. The truth is you’ve read E2 = 22 is mandatory and it’s imprinted in your head.

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Here’s the thing though, a “protocol change” does not always induce feelings of feeling like shit, maybe for every thread you read here sure it’s common but the only reason people are posting here is because they feel like shit. Majority of men on TRT do not even know what half of this stuff is and do not post here. Just as an example my dad changed his TRT protocol 3 weeks ago and never felt worse only better. Fluctuations in hormone levels are normal.

Also I have read over 14k posts in a matter of 28 day’s here so I do read. I believe here on T nation (which is the minority of men using TRT) there may be issues when changing protocol. Most likely due to psyche problems. The majority of men here are OUTLIERS and have psyche issues that TRT can not fix. Don’t believe me just read on about all the men constantly changing their protocol and having ED issues. It’s mental, the mind is very powerful.

Back to the actual topic of the thread. High E2 individually and separate from T levels can cause symptoms. I will link studies here. There are Estrogen receptors in the brain, and corpus cavernosum… and these studies say that regardless of T levels higher E2 levels are correlated to sexual dysfunction and mood regulation problems.

I have seen @dbossa carelessly spread information that High E2 does not cause symptoms. But his stance is a little over bearing and should be taken as just another opinion. Everyone here experiences different symptoms case by case.

Aromatase enzyme is necessary for brain function and well being but that does not mean we should blast free T extremely high and let E2 run wild high either… these hormones can have an impact on different bodily functions regardless of what the other level is. ie: High E2 can leave one feeling like shit in the presence of low, normal, or even high free T.

This does not mean I am anti E I believe AI is likely not needed once body reaches steady state and homeostasis so long as one is not obese and estrogen dominant when starting TRT. But we can not just let E2 triple the top of the ranges like he says.

If you are having high E2 symptoms and your Free T is over the top of the range, there is wiggle room to reduce your dosage. This will bring free T to a level within range and likely reduce E2 in the process.

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This couldn’t be further from the truth… I do not believe in a golden 22 E2 number. Lol can you not read between the lines?

I am saying that I do not believe in extremely high Free T while letting E2 run ridiculously high. I do not believe in needing an AI at all to manage estrogen, so long as estrogen is balance not too high or to low which will be dictated by ones Free T levels and Aromatase activity.

As far as not being knowledgeable… I am a paramedic, and hold a bachelors degree in biomedical sciences. Soon will be going to PA school.

The fact that you jumped at me thinking I truly believe in managing E2 or thinking that this thread was about being Anti E shows me that you are not knowledgeable. Lol, instead this thread is about understanding both high E2 and Low E2 can be detrimental to well being, and high Free T is not always the answer if E2 runs too high.

If you look at Danny’s stance he is constantly saying higher Free T is the goal (over range) and E2 should be ignored if too high so long as your Free T is 30+.

If your E2 is high with Free T over range AND your having symptoms of sexual dysfunction THEN all I am saying is to reduce dosage and let E2 come down by itself, because higher E2 can by itself cause issues.

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You aren’t comprehending what you’re reading and I can’t help you with that. All of your points have been tirelessly argued every week. Go back and read those.

This is case by case basis @dextermorgan. For your lab work I can post 10 more showing high Free T and high E2 in light of sexual dysfunction. There are Estrogen receptors (alpha and beta) found in bone, brain, and in the penis. Regardless of T levels higher Estrogen as seen in your blood work “can” cause issues. Doesn’t mean it will always.

What I am saying, and I will repeat one more time for you…

If your Free T is over range AND E2 is over range and there are sexual dysfunction or mood issues, then reduce dosage and let E2 lower naturally. I am an individual who does not have a one tracked mind. I am not for or against E2. But I am smart enough to know that extremely high E2 can cause issues. Over range Free T is not always the answer or optimal. Please try not to be so close minded before taking a jab at someone’s intellect.

Also can you read the part where as soon as my E2 has lowered it is matched with symptom relief? I can replicate this every week.

My opinion: find a free T that will be optimal in terms of managing estrogen naturally while providing symptom relief. For some depending on aromatase activity this free T will be higher or lower. This is highly individualistic depending on metabolism and ones ability/rate of conversion to E2.

There is not a one dosage/approach fits all when examining Free T/E so for once and for all please stop saying extremely high Free T is the answer to all problems and that estrogen has no bearing on cognitive abilities and sexual health. Because this is simply not true. If you understood how Alpha, Beta, tissue specific receptors work in the human body you would surely know this. @dbossa

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Look up how many people suffer from ED in the US. So you’re saying all they need to do is lower their estrogen to not have ED? Or is possible that someone can have amazing hormone levels and still have ED because it’s much more complicated?

How about just find the right dose of testosterone that makes you feel the best and be done with it. For the future when you argue this shit you should understand the body’s ability to metabolize estrogen as its a much better argument than ability to convert testosterone to estrogen.

@dextermorgan ED is complicated and is more often than not a psyche problem. Performance anxiety is compounding. So many complain here they are never dialed in and have ED issues. TRT is not a cure all. Other factors can cause sexual dysfunction. As I have said before the mind is powerful

More times than not men have morning wood but can not get an erection when it’s go time. This is not a physical problem but a CNS communication/signaling issue or just plain anxiety. I am much more knowledgeable than you are crediting me and in my undergrad coursework I have dabbled in sexual biology physiology classes.

I am also very familiar with drugs and the effect on the human body, both acquired through my experience/schooling as a medic and also as part of my bachelors degree.

You can be a forum hero all you want and talk down to me about my intellect but I am no stranger to how the human body works. What is your medical background?

The only thing I am saying is that, Free T should not be taken too high and estrogen should not be allowed to run rampant either. Sometimes more is not better. I am not an advocate for keeping E2 low as I know low E2 is also problematic.

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I’m not being a forum hero. You’re trying to debate dbossa on shit he literally has answered in detail 8 times a week for the last 6 months.

I’m an advocate for whatever works. Find a TRT dose that makes you feel best. That’s it. That dose will be different for different people.

Can you read the part where I said metabolism? Lol holy shit.

For all your education you’re trying to simply things that are much more complicated. Estrogen is one of thousands of things that injecting testosterone has an effect on.

This doesn’t mean he is right just because he has been debating this for 6 months. He has been debating and providing the wrong information. He claims High Estrogen has no impact on a mans well being, cognitive capabilities, or sexual dysfunction.

This is simply not true.

He says he has 1000s of men on high Free T and high E2 and that E2 should be disregarded. That is careless to say and can have an impact on future readers who will begin to think higher E2 is without problems. Look at how we went from KSman days of being Anti E to today where we are loving high E2.

One last time.

aromatase enzyme is important for health and sexual function as is serum E2 levels. But both low and High E2 can cause issues. Just as both low and high T can cause issues. There is a threshold for where the human body has its capabilities and where these numbers belong. Go to high with T and issues arise, go to high with estrogen and I can ensure you, issues can and will arise.

Then make better arguments because you’re current arguments aren’t that great.

@dextermorgan

You clearly can’t read, I am saying BOTH high and low E2 causes issues and Free T being over range is not always the answer. It’s a very simple argument and if you truly understood how estrogen receptors work in different tissues then you would understand this basic concept.

How is my argument not sound? Estrogenic receptors react and produce effects independently of Testosterone.

It is careless to say “I have 1000 men with 30+ Free T and over range E2 and they are all fantastic! Come on everybody join me in this quest of high levels”.

Moral of story:

Find a dosage/protocol where you feel best without needing AI. If free T is higher and E2 is higher and there are symptoms, reduce dosage. Repeat labs, and reasses. Do I need to provide you with a flow chart of how this works?

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Yes and it’s been said a million times and it’s pointless. Nothing is ever always the answer. Everyone is different that’s why a simple “find the right dose for you” is the answer.

Pointless is how it sounds.

No it’s pointless to post your 70+ E2 bragging about how you are unaffected. You are just as bad as Danny and clearly are an advocate of dismissing E2. You can’t see that I am not saying low E2 is the answer but rather I am saying that there is an optimal balance and E2 needs to be considered. IF there are has not been symptom relief on a protocol.

If you can’t understand this concept I can’t help you.

I understand what you’re saying I’m just saying you’re wrong. Find the right dose of testosterone.

So is this research paper wrong?

Men who received estrogen with low T felt better, but for men with normal or higher T… when they took estrogen too high they felt worse. It’s basic understanding. To say I’m wrong with zero evidence is meaningless.

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@grinnin you are making an argument from ignorance. You’re also making a logical fallacy.

“I don’t know what the problem is. There is this one number I happen to measure (E2) that goes up sometimes so it MUST be that.”

What would have happened if you didn’t know E2 existed, started measuring other things that were going up and down, and blamed your issues on that. Would that be any more accurate? No.

You’re watching E2 like a hawk, because that’s what you were taught without the slightest idea of the role it has on the body, ignoring virtually everything else, and then blaming everything on it when the number changes.

Find my videos on YouTube and watch them. Watch them twice. Watch the ones where I involve other doctors who say exactly what I’m saying (where do you think I learned this from??). Watch the one with me and Dr. Jordan Grant for starters. I’m not going to rewrite everything here for your benefit for the ten thousandth time.

I know EXACTLY what issue you have and why. I’ve seen it a thousand times if not more. The advice I give in those videos, which is the same advice the doctors give in those videos, is good advice. If it was shit advice, I wouldn’t be wasting my time trying to help people for free.

Please read above linked study you clearly fail to understand the way estrogen effects a mans health. Both low and high E2 are not good. AIs are not needed when an individual on TRT has the correct dosage. I do not watch E2 like a hawk I am simply saying high Free T as you suggest with high E2 is not always healthy.

Instead a healthy free T and E2 is needed for proper sexual function.

You are just like @KSman except on the opposite side of the spectrum.

I however am neutral and understand the effects of both T and E on various systems.

You can’t keep spreading misinformation that High Free T is the goal regardless of high E2 it’s absurd. You have a closed one track mind. Very narrow thinker who does not deviate from their ideas. Just like @KSman

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