T Nation

High E2 Sides vs Low E2 Sides?

In general, what are the main differences?

I’m 7 weeks into a protocol - 100mg E3.5D IM - and not taking an AI. I started with T levels at 600 and E2 at 17. I’m not due for lab work for a bit yet.

First 3 weeks were great. The last 4 weeks, not so great. I’m working out 6 days a week, eating smart. Getting plenty of sleep.

Tired, despite sleeping well
Dark circles under eyes
Libido disappeared
Nocturnal wood, but no urges during the day
Water retention
Ejaculate volume disappeared

I’ve avoided AI, but considering a small dosage if these are high E2 symptoms…?

Sounds like high e2, or rather high relative to what you’re used to. AI is a temporary fix. My money would be on you needing to lower the dose.

2 Likes

Try switching to eod injections, keeping the same weekly dose. Give it at least 8 weeks, and evaluate then.

It worked for me. I was on the same weekly dose as you.

1 Like

Any chance you could have sleep apnea which is making you tired and giving you dark circles under your eyes?

1 Like

I do have sleep apnea, but I have an APAP machine that tracks my sleep data, and I am sleeping really well.

Would you suggest I try a little AI this week to see if it helps?

Thanks - I was thinking about trying that and maybe dropping my dose just a little bit as well.

I wouldn’t do both. If you drop your dose, AND switch to eod, you won’t know which helped.

Personally, I’m very sensitive to hormone fluctuations. By switching to eod, I inject less each time, and the fluctuations are less. Less hormone fluctuations, meant less “E2” symptoms, which weren’t really E2 symptoms after all.

1 Like

Those are definitely symptoms of high E2. Your HCT might be too high also so without knowing your blood levels it is usually a good idea to donate some whole blood. I would try .5mg of anastrozole twice per week, each one day after your pins, and see how you feel after doing that.

Don’t take anything, especially .5mg of anastrozole twice a week (Some of the stupidest advice ever) without labs. Don’t donate blood on a whim without labs. Don’t shoot in the dark. Water retention is the only thing that you listed that would go firmly in the “High E2” checklist. Get labs, adjust from there. Taking a high dose of an AI blindly is asking for pain - which is okay I guess if you’re into that.

3 Likes

I’m not going to do that. I did take a .25mg of AI last night with my injection, but I don’t intend to do that regularly, I don’t want to be on any AI. I am trying EOD injections now to see if that helps. Unfortunately, I don’t get my labs for another month from my clinic.

Bro science! “High E2” sides are not high E2 sides. In reality, the sides you’re experiencing are due to your sensitivity to hormones. I too thought my symptoms were high E2 sides, until I listened to @dbossa, and lowered the amount I inject, each injection, by injecting more frequently. Now I don’t “need to” take an AI poison.

2 Likes

There are people who donate blood every day without getting a CBC blood test first. They check your HGB when you donate. It is healthy to donate blood and only people who have low levels of HH is it bad…which more than likely he does not have and it would be tested by the donation ctr before donation anyway. You’re obviously a numbers person but it is okay to go by how you feel and by symptoms while in between blood labs. .5mg of anastrozole twice is a week to see if it makes him feel better is not stupid. It will not kill or hurt him, it will not crash his estrogen or hurt him, and it certainly isn’t a “high dose.” Some men love to have as much estrogen as women do so I understand, but not everyone is like that. High estrogen can definitely cause low libido and water retention. If you think there’s another perfectly good reason both of those happened, I’d love to know. To me, it is clear what is happening but that is me. Doing nothing while waiting for more blood labs and continuing to feel those symptoms is definitely an option however.

I am not particularly a numbers guy, but what you have just said is not true. It “May” not hurt him or crash him, but I would be surprised. It would crash mine to undetectable, and i typically run an E2 in the 60’s. Low E2 causes a lot of problems in a lot of people and it is irresponsible to advise taking an AI without numbers. Period. And it is a high dose. It’s an “On cycle” dose for most guys, not a realistic TRT dose for the few with a need. More drugs are simply more complications, and you gave foolish advice.

2 Likes

I disagree with every single thing you said. Nothing you said has any merit.

That’s because you are wrong.

5 Likes

I’m gonna have to agree with @hardartery on this. 1mg Arimadex crashed me twice taking it as you’ve suggested. Seems to be the common cookie cutter protocol by you clinics though.

“Here start with a really high test dose ie200mg”… “Don’t feel well? Add more drugs like an AI” …

SSDD. @realestrealist some need an AI but most don’t. You need more labs period. After that I would change injection protocol or lower dose a bit depending on FULL lab results.

3 Likes

@envizionmedtampa I know you disagree with everything he just said, or everything everyone else just said, but you’re spouting bro science that you absolutely couldn’t demonstrate if a gun was held to your head.

You have a lot of catching up to do on this subject. Perhaps start with looking into how regular blood donations inevitably cause a ferritin deficiency. Also provide your evidence as to why estradiol should be blocked or managed for any man on TRT. If you bring up ranges, you’ll be demonstrating an even further lack of understanding on this subject.

I will repeat: it is bro-science. You learned it from the bodybuilding forums. I get it. There is zero basis in reality. None. Nada. Zip. Zero.

I strongly recommend taking a look at the TRT and Hormone Optimization YouTube channel and watch all the lectures and interviews with several dozen physicians who discuss the topics and go through the literature. I’ve done probably 50 or more talks on these subjects.

If you believe it has no merit, provide your evidence.

6 Likes

Agree with previous posters. You’re spouting old school body builder bro science bullshit @envizionmedtampa

Hell hath frozen over, we’re on the same page.

3 Likes