For all you high dosage vets out there, I have the following questions:
What “target” estrodiol levels would YOU consider most effective for gaining maximum muslce mass? This may sound like an unusual question since most believe it is only the anabolics that contribute to size…however estrogen DOES play a role, and there must be some ratio of anabolics to estrogen that results in maximum gains. For a 1000 mg/week dosage of Test Cyp with 1.5 mg/week Arimidex, should the target estrodiol levels be at the high end or should I strive to stay at “normal” baseline levels? I will be running a 12 week course to be followed by a long tapering period per Prisoner’s suggestions. I will be upping my bloodwork from once a month to every other week.
I’ve never done this high amount before, and therefore am quite inexperienced with it. Now I know I can go through all the previous posts on subjects like this (I actually will be doing that BEFORE I embark on the high dose route), but in a nutshell, what are your warning heedings and other “things to watch out for”?
My body responds extremely well to anabolics…this is the main reason why I never ventured into high dosage territory before because I didn’t need to. I am doing this in 2008 to gain another datum point to establish for me the real optimum range of anabolic intake for me. I’ve done the low dose, I’m gonna do the high dose…hopefully this will help me determine what the optimum “middle of the road” dose is for me.
One more thing. As of today, 12/31/2007, I have been completely clean for 1 full year. Bloodwork looks fabulous, so I have a very very good baseline of where my natural levels are. Previous bloodwork during recovery periods match my current results pretty well so no “age related” degredation of natural levels yet, lol!
must qualify this by saying i have never had bloodwork done, so this is all brotelligence…for me to feel normal (just on sides/gains/overall feeling)…test dosages between 500-1000 mg/week requires 0.25 mg a-dex ED, 12.5 mg ED aromasin, or 1.25 mg letro twice a week.
test dosages in the 1000-1500 range needs a bump to 0.5 mg ED a-dex, 25 mg ED aromasin or 1.25 mg EOD letro (i don’t recommend letro for long term AI use).
test dosages at 2000 mg/week made me feel like absolute shit and had zero additional benefit IMHO. dosage and gains are not totally dependent upon eachother in my experience.
my cycles are currently, and will continue to hover in the 600-1000 mg range total AAS/week. i feel taking advantage of synergy between lower dosages of several compounds stacked is the best cycling approach.
my 2 cc’s…not sure if it is beneficial. but good luck bro.
In my experience I think maximizing gains comes down to two things: total levels of estrogen and testosterone, and ratio between these two. While increasing test levels will certainly help, I have found that great gains can come from having a proper estrogen balance to go along with the test. I have also found it harder to control estrogen levels (keep them within a certain range) with increasingly higher doses of test (e.g. It’s easier to have a balance between the two at 500mg/wk than it is at 1000mg/wk).
For some reason I have a hard time finding a suitable dose of AI or SERM to keep my estrogen in check to maximize gains. Though in the process of experimenting (detailed below) I found that the levels of estrogen certainly do play a role. I start by taking my dose of test (dose doesn’t matter here as all doses elicit this effect). If I don’t take any AI with my test my gains seem to increase to an extent and then level out and diminish as my estro levels and side effects increase. If I take a huge shot of AI to combat these estro effects and drop my estro down to essentially zero, the effects of the test increase dramatically and then eventually plummet as my estrogen goes from too much to too little. As my estro is then essentially zero, I will stop taking all AI and let estro levels climb again. While estro levels are climbing the effects of the test become super pronounced and then drop off gain, similar to the beginning of the cycle.
I have repeated this yo-yo effect of estro levels while keeping the test level constant with doses ranging from 200mg/wk up to 2000mg/wk. In the process of raising and lowering estrogen, each time it seems to hit a “sweet spot” for about two days where I get super horny, get amazing muscle pumps and fullness, feel strong and exceptionally motivated, have a great sense of wellbeing, and get a ton of acne and oily skin. After I leave this sweet spot all of these factors return to baseline almost overnight. It’s actually quite amazing how quickly these change, and just the fact that they ALL change, which would suggest that the effects of testosterone are mediated by estrogen to some degree.
With higher levels of test this period shortens to about a day, and with lower levels of test this period lengthens to about three days, which leads me to believe that having more test leads to much quicker changes in estrogen levels, thus entering and leaving the level of estro associated with the “sweet spot” much more quickly compared with lower test levels. Since this portion of my theory is backed up with general physiological principles, I don’t think I’m too far off with my thinking here.
So as far as “does estrogen play a role and how much is needed,” I can’t answer that with a direct statement. But I can say that too little is counterproductive and too much is counterproductive. I can also say that with this method I’ve “felt” and experienced positive and negative side effects from a 500mg/wk dose of test that are more or just as powerful as 2000mg/wk of test, provided the levels of test and estro were balanced. More is certainly not better in my experience.
Very much appreciate all the replies, especially from Juice20jd, Schwarzeneger, and of course Bushy.
Schwarzy: very very interesting details in your post. I never thought about yo-yo’ing, and your experiences are noted.
So far you very smart and experienced people are strengthening my fear of the super high dose. I am not abandoning the idea, however perhaps I should be smarter about this and follow what I’ve preached for so long: gradual increases to see what it does over time.
Perhaps I should consider 3 cycles this year; the 1st being with 500 mg/week Test and an AI; the 2nd upping it to 750 mg/week with an AI…evaluate and if things are OK…do the 1000 mg/week with an AI.
Alot of food for thought. Again, thanks you guys for the inputs. If you think of anything else, please post or PM me. Honestly…this whole thing is on my mind now almost 24/7.
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
cadav wrote:
i vote for class II induced synergy
OK, but for the sake of discussion, would you care to explain why?
Bushy[/quote]
I fear E effects
I have noticed that if i reach 1gr of aromating AAS per week i need to use adex. I fear gyno and i don’t like the bloated effects pf E. I don’t like the mood that coma with E.
And i think that stacking AAS by class is a better why to plan a cycle with expected “results”.
Schwarz, when you mention the “huge shot of an AI;” why not, when you hit the sweet spot, take something more moderate. I’m assuming you mean that you’re either taking letro, or a large dose of A-dex to take your E levels to practically 0.
Why not take a moderate dose of a moderate AI (A-dex, for example) and try and sit in that sweet spot between the E and T? I know that the yo-yo effect guarantees that you’ll hit that spot both on the way up, and down, but wouldn’t it make sense to try and find that groove, and sit in it?
Schmazz, that was my experimental protocol I’ve messed with for a couple weeks here and there on different cycles. Of course I do aim to stay in the sweet spot, as anyone with common sense would do.
