T Nation

High Blood Pressure

Hi Guys,

I have posted recently but didn’t get many responses. I am on 180mg of testosterone cyp a week, 250iu HCG eod, .25mg anastrazole a week. I split my dose of 180 a week into two separate 90mg injections. My testosterone levels hover around 800-900 on this dose with E2 around 25.

I feel amazing. The only problem is that the testosterone jacks up my BP!! I came off recently for 1 month and my BP went back down to 118/78 and its back to 140/92 on treatment.

I never want to come off again and don’t want to go on meds. Should I just lower my testosterone dose? Is there a difference between the oils of different esters and their effect on blood pressure (I have access to pharm prop if need be).

My diet is EXTREMELY clean and I workout 6 days a week. I am 10% bodyfat 6’0 215lbs.

My supplements daily are 100mg CoQ10, 6 1000mg fish oil, multi vitamin, and vitamin d 2x a week. I just quit coffee as well to control BP

Any suggestions would be great! Thanks guys

I have similar issues with the old b.p.
I do .5 of a mill of Sust every week and dont want to come off it. Clean diet aint enough for me either- However about 15 to 20 miles a week on a push bike for cardio helps. I now have accepted that if i stay on test- I have to cycle to work.This was is the trade off for me.

I had a similar reaction to my elevated BP so looked into it further. Testosterone affects the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system at the kidneys and causes more water to be retained in the blood elevating BP. Lowering your dose might help as it’s fairly high. The other thing to consider is your thyroid status. A sluggish thyroid can cause elevated BP and Lipids (lower HDL though) and cause the heart muscle to pump faster and weaker.

I have elevated BP as well on 170 mg/week. I do two things. I give blood every few months and I take Bystolic 5mg every day. Those things help me maintain a low BP.

My doctor also prescribed Aldactone 25mg/day. I don’t use it. It didn’t have any effect on my BP. I don’t know if that would help you or not. If you think that retaining water is causing your elevated BP, it might.

[quote]JamesWhittaker wrote:

My diet is EXTREMELY clean and I workout 6 days a week. I am 10% bodyfat 6’0 215lbs. [/quote]

If this is accurate, it mean you would be stage-ready at ~200 lbs or so–an impressive weight for a 6-footer, and one indicative of the presence of a LOT of muscle.

In other words, either you are currently a HUGE (as in muscular) guy, or you are dramatically underestimating your BF%. The point being, if it’s the latter, you might make a significant dent in your BP by simply losing some BF.

Post a shirtless pic if you want outside estimates re your BF level.

Is HTC elevated?

Are you getting magnesium in your supplements? That can help with the tone of the smooth muscles that wrap around the arteries. That muscle needs to be able to expand with each pulse of blood, then contract and relax for the next pulse.

Do you get leg cramps? That is a sign of magnesium deficiency.

T esters in oil are a time release mechanism as they are absorbed and the ester groups are removed, yielding bio-identical T. You could try $$$ transdermals and if BP was then not an issue, that would indicate an issue with T+ester that has never been identified. If that were true, it also points to something that does not occur in most men. So that is all speculation by me. If you do transdermals, E2 will increase and you will need to balance that again.

“Testosterone affects the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system at the kidneys and causes more water to be retained in the blood elevating BP” If that were true, all young virile males with these T levels would have BP problems. So there is something else going on which probably is in-part age related.

Supplements:

  • high potency B-complex multi-vit with iodine, SELENIUM and other trace elements
  • Vit=D3 5,000iu
  • Ubiquinol form of CoQ10
  • natural source vit-E
  • vit-C and other antioxidants
  • EFA’s, fish oil, nuts, flax seed oil/meal

Homocysteine?
CRP?

Here’s the evidence:

I agree it would also be age-related. Young virile males also have nice elastic arteries. I suspect there may be a difference between BP increases due to blood volume, HCT, and muscle tone etc. when compared to atherosclerotic, obese, and comorbid individuals.

It makes sense for me anyway because as my testosterone levels have risen, so too has my blood pressure. I’ve never had blood pressure problems and no family history. The change from a consistent 120/80 to my current hypertensive state is only after a 6 month period. I’ve lost fat and gained muscle, eat a well balanced diet with plenty of variety, and train intelligently. I attribute it to testosterone and have lowered my dose because of it. It could be stress related but I cant see it changing to the point where I can feel the congestion.

I fluctuate between 9 and 13%. Yes I have a lot of muscle. I have been absolutely obsessed with working out for the last 12 years (never taken any anabolics but my TRT dose)

[quote]KSman wrote:
Is HTC elevated?

Are you getting magnesium in your supplements? That can help with the tone of the smooth muscles that wrap around the arteries. That muscle needs to be able to expand with each pulse of blood, then contract and relax for the next pulse.

Do you get leg cramps? That is a sign of magnesium deficiency.

T esters in oil are a time release mechanism as they are absorbed and the ester groups are removed, yielding bio-identical T. You could try $$$ transdermals and if BP was then not an issue, that would indicate an issue with T+ester that has never been identified. If that were true, it also points to something that does not occur in most men. So that is all speculation by me. If you do transdermals, E2 will increase and you will need to balance that again.

“Testosterone affects the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system at the kidneys and causes more water to be retained in the blood elevating BP” If that were true, all young virile males with these T levels would have BP problems. So there is something else going on which probably is in-part age related.

Supplements:

  • high potency B-complex multi-vit with iodine, SELENIUM and other trace elements
  • Vit=D3 5,000iu
  • Ubiquinol form of CoQ10
  • natural source vit-E
  • vit-C and other antioxidants
  • EFA’s, fish oil, nuts, flax seed oil/meal

Homocysteine?
CRP?[/quote]

Thank you for the in depth response!

HTC is not elevated. I give blood frequently although it has never shown elevated on my monthly blood work. I take magnesium every night with zinc and have never experienced leg cramps.

I have not tried transdermal. It is worth looking into and I am interested to see the result. Maybe I will have my doctor prescribe prop to change up esters and see how that affects my BP as well. I am getting an in depth blood test in a week and a half and I will update with results and full panel.

Thanks for all of the input guys!

Thank you all for your input.

Thank you KSMan for the in depth response.

I am not holding onto much water weight for that to be an issue. I do take magnesium every night with zinc.

I will get a full blood panel to check all of my numbers within the next couple of weeks including homocysteine. I will definitely look into the transdermal to see if it effects if I think it may be an ester issue. I can’t see it being from the testosterone (as you mentioned otherwise the whole world at age 21 would have high BP). I will keep you all updated as I find a solution.

It didn’t show my previous post so I double typed it. Not sure how to delete a post so ignore last one.

KSMan is the prop ester completely different from cypionate (in regards to chemical makeup) where that could be effective at determining if its an ester issue rather than transdermal experimentation?

this at home or in docs office? You could be starting to get anxiety over it if your taking multiple times a day. Drink more water, little more high level cardio, plenty of good supplements for this to bring down a little, do not start taking bp meds at this level or you will be taking for the rest of your life. This is a little elevated as to what you say you normally have but these are not horrific numbers especially if you feel fantastic.

Yea I have no interest in being on BP meds for the rest of my life. I will get to the bottom of this naturally. I will keep you all posted once I get my labs.

KS Man: 1 more question for you: Can the body differentiate synthetic testosterone and your own levels? That would be absolutely terrible for me if my body was just rejecting synthetic testosterone in general and jacking my BP up.

The last thing I feel like doing is lowering my dose or quitting but I will keep you all updated with what happens.

[quote]JamesWhittaker wrote:
KS Man: 1 more question for you: Can the body differentiate synthetic testosterone and your own levels? That would be absolutely terrible for me if my body was just rejecting synthetic testosterone in general and jacking my BP up.

The last thing I feel like doing is lowering my dose or quitting but I will keep you all updated with what happens. [/quote]

I think it’s more to do with dose peak and administration frequency than ester differences. A natural increase in testosterone is a soft curve early in the morning and gradually declines every day. The body is able to control it’s use and production in a very natural way(in healthy individuals of course). TRT on the other hand is often delivered with a hard spike, way over a natural curve in an attempt to reduce subsequent troughs and at a frequency that is also unnatural, e3d or weekly.

I believe it’s these periods of excess testosterone that create unwanted side effects. But it’s necessary to maintain a decent level 3 days later and avoid subphysiologic levels. For instance I’ve had acne for months and after changing to EOD administration the acne has mostly disappeared. Still roughly the same weekly dose but much lower peaks at each admin. I’m even considering everyday dosing cause lets face it a little poke from an insulin needle is hardly even noticeable and the syringes have almost zero medication waste. The 50cents/day makes me somewhat hesitate.

[quote]C27 H40 O3 wrote:

[quote]JamesWhittaker wrote:
KS Man: 1 more question for you: Can the body differentiate synthetic testosterone and your own levels? That would be absolutely terrible for me if my body was just rejecting synthetic testosterone in general and jacking my BP up.

The last thing I feel like doing is lowering my dose or quitting but I will keep you all updated with what happens. [/quote]

I think it’s more to do with dose peak and administration frequency than ester differences. A natural increase in testosterone is a soft curve early in the morning and gradually declines every day. The body is able to control it’s use and production in a very natural way(in healthy individuals of course). TRT on the other hand is often delivered with a hard spike, way over a natural curve in an attempt to reduce subsequent troughs and at a frequency that is also unnatural, e3d or weekly.

I believe it’s these periods of excess testosterone that create unwanted side effects. But it’s necessary to maintain a decent level 3 days later and avoid subphysiologic levels. For instance I’ve had acne for months and after changing to EOD administration the acne has mostly disappeared. Still roughly the same weekly dose but much lower peaks at each admin. I’m even considering everyday dosing cause lets face it a little poke from an insulin needle is hardly even noticeable and the syringes have almost zero medication waste. The 50cents/day makes me somewhat hesitate. [/quote]

Very interesting. I appreciate the input. I have also struggled with acne on TRT. I may just give the EOD dosing a try to see as well. Do you do sub Q with insulin needle or im?

[quote]JamesWhittaker wrote:
I may just give the EOD dosing a try to see as well. Do you do sub Q with insulin needle or im?[/quote]

Yes, sub Q with an insulin syringe. I don’t administer to the abdomen though to avoid the hepatic portal system (it’s a paranoid hunch of mine). I’ve lowered to 20mg EOD to see if I can get my BP to come down a little.

After the esters are removed, the result is bio-identical, so its the same.

A different ester is a different ester, but the result is still bio-identical T. However, the big speculation is that the T+ester might be an issue in rare cases, if at all. Transdermals would be an absolute test, different ester would be great if it worked, but if not, the issue is then not fully resolved.

Portal vein does not drain skin anywhere. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepatic_portal_vein

[quote]KSman wrote:
After the esters are removed, the result is bio-identical, so its the same.

A different ester is a different ester, but the result is still bio-identical T. However, the big speculation is that the T+ester might be an issue in rare cases, if at all. Transdermals would be an absolute test, different ester would be great if it worked, but if not, the issue is then not fully resolved.

Portal vein does not drain skin anywhere. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepatic_portal_vein

'[/quote]

Great! I am very interested how this will go. I will keep you all updated!

Thanks again for the input

[quote]KSman wrote:

Portal vein does not drain skin anywhere. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepatic_portal_vein
[/quote]

Ever seen caput madusae? When you back up the portal vein you get to see a whole lot of veins in the abdomen.