T Nation

Hi God. Are You There? Are You Real?


#1001

Ok we agree then. Marriage has changed over time and can change in the future.

So I’ll ask again if you think gay marriage has had a direct impact on your life and how? I’m way more interested in talking about actual things about real people than disappearing ones and how things would be bad if only gays were around.


#1002

I’ve already mentioned I don’t really care, but they don’t have to come to be. If I want pot legalized it doesn’t mean heroin has to be legal as well even if similar arguments are used. Personally I’d be fine with both. But thinking one is ok and not the other is perfectly fine. We do this all the time in regards to laws or how we view things.


#1003

We’ve always agreed that homosexual marriages are legal and state recognized.


#1004

No, they do, by all the arguments my opponents have laid out. And you should, to be consistent.

Consenting adults.

Your marriage not affected.

What did they do to you.

Discrimination, bigotry, etc.


#1005

Doesn’t seem like it.


#1006

Same as interracial marriage then. If you support that do you have to support everything else? Why not? All of this has to be supported merely by supporting gay marriage? Who says?

Is it inconsistent to be for pot legalization but against heroin?

More importantly does it actually matter? Or are we just spinning in circles to say we’re spinning? I mean you want airtight consistency and you believe in a book that can’t even get a few people to agree on what happened to some dude?

And can you tell me if gay marriage has had a direct impact on YOUR life? I keep asking because I’m genuinely wondering about your answer. I thought (must have got you mixed up) that you were a married catholic with kids. Not that it would have changed anything but I could have mixed up some stuff.


#1007

Of course it does.


#1008

No, because my position recognizes a quality we all agreed exists inherently with hetero marriage (which hetero interacial marriage shares). They aren’t similar.


#1009

The importance of the ability to reproduce. Except for gay people can have kids. But they can’t without science or something so they can’t “actually do that.” If it was just them it would be hard to keep up with population if all the straight people died. Don’t let them marry.

Let me try again:

The importance of the ability to reproduce. Except for straight people who can’t have kids. But just because they can’t have kids doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be allowed to marry because at least they are straight. It would be hard for them to keep up with population if all the straight people who could have kids die. Let them marry because simply because they can’t have kids doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be able to marry. Remember they aren’t gay.

Just because everyone said interracial marriage would lead to all sorts of bad things doesn’t mean it will/did.

Just because everyone says gay marriage will lead to all sorts of bad things definitely means it will. Or else you can’t be consistent.

Gays don’t have critical importance to society because they can’t have kids. Straight people who can have kids do. Straight people who can’t have kids have critical importance to society even though they can’t have kids.

Did I summarize all the convoluted thinking into one post? Are you ready to answer if it has had a direct impact on your life? Is that question showing up invisible?


#1010

Convoluted? It’s brute natural fact.

I mean, this is pointless. For you marriage might mean 1-dozens ‘married’ in whatever arrangement of whatever level of intimacy. You don’t care. Not much left to discuss. I am going to nurse my headache. Maybe I’ll be back later today if I can get it under control.


#1011

Which part? The fact that gays can reproduce with help? Or the fact that straight people who can’t reproduce and need help have a critical importance above those gays because…

Well because they aren’t gay.

And you’re still dodging that question but I think I know the answer if you’re honest. The only way they harm your life is by you tearing your hair out over the fact that an institution you don’t even participate in is somehow less viable because of them.

Your religion has convinced you that these people are beneath you. If you had never been exposed to it you might not care at all.


#1012

You mean cloning? Who can’t do that. Begun, the clone wars have. Later.


#1013

I’m not sure what you mean. I’m sure you’d grant that in a society where everyone was straight but couldn’t have kids we would have issues. And a society where everyone is gay we would have issues.

But these are both ludicrous and don’t have a real chance of happening.

Here in the real world in 2019 both groups can have kids. God bless science.


#1014

And in 2019 gays still aren’t spontaneously and inherent ly having children.


#1015

Fine, answer this.

Could you honestly say that if hereto marriage didn’t exist, we wouldn’t feel almost immediately compelled as a society to invent it based on its own inherent merits?


#1016

True. And neither are all the straight people who can’t reproduce. Their critical importance defined by you is the same. And yet one can marry and the other can’t by your standards. Which is fine, let’s just not pretend that the ability to reproduce should play into marriage then. It has to be something else if you let straight people who can’t have kids do it.

But we don’t live in a society where people can’t have children. Straight people who can have kids, gay people who can’t have kids, straight people who can’t have kids, all have the means to have a child to raise.


#1017

I don’t have any idea. Far as I know people got along ok before the institution of marriage spread. I don’t know the whole history.

I kinda think humans would be ok either way but I don’t think it matters much.

Can you tell me how gay marriage has impacted your life directly since it has been passed?


#1018

You really don’t know? I think you do know. I think you realize the answer is that we would. And I think you realize the impact. Nobody here is that naive. I think you realize this, but having guessed the followup question understand conceding this point hands me a huge victory. We know where I was going with it.

Yes, we would.


#1019

I think this is you inventing things or again discussing hypotheticals for some reason that are paper games at best.

Marriage became an institution in history. That changed throughout history. You don’t like a recent change of it. Others might not have liked previous changes. They happened. Time marched on.

If society started over would we do it again? Who knows? No one can be right. Maybe we’d let gays marry from the beginning? Maybe we wouldn’t ever let blacks and whites marry?

We’re talking fiction. I’m a bit tired of fiction. I don’t pretend to know how society might be if it started over.

I’m not really interested in victory. We probably both think we have won and you’re ignoring certain questions of mine and have for a while. I believe I have answered all of yours multiple times so I’m going to need a break.


#1020

The answer is that we would. We would feel a need to, compelled, by its own inherent merits.

We wouldn’t feel that need with homosexual marriage.
It would simply be an emotional argument about some subjective appeal to ‘fair’ and ‘equality.’

I have a logical reason for my position. One that is honestly self evident.

There is no such argument for the other side.

Time to supper and rest this aching head, anyways.