T Nation

Hi God. Are You There? Are You Real?


You clearly have a very wrong idea of what that concept would entail.

Saying that as someone who actually lives that way and it’s not all that different from when I believed in God.

This is pedantic and childish at best. It’s EXTREMELY common throughout history for many people to be bent to the will of religion despite whether or not they believe.


Exactly. They were successful and right. If success is even assumed to be a necessity. It isn’t.

Well, if you meant that people must be allowed to come to their own decisions…That too is a matter of opinion. To which I needn’t agree. And in which I wouldn’t be wrong objectively to disagree.


So? If it is a dominant and successful stragety, so be it. Morally, it isn’t objectively wrong


I’ma bow out here. Equating the religion debate, which has done things as far as cause widescale murder, to being ‘wrong’ about a favorite color is simply a nonstarter.

And patently fucking absurd.

Have a good one


I don’t know what this thread has devolved into.


Did you not say morality is subjective? In which case murder is no more objectively wrong than liking neon green as your favorite color.

You act as if I’ve disputed the attractive forces of gravity.

Don’t be so emotional. We are talking about opinions without objective right or wrong. Or, are you claiming that there is some objective moral difference between the two?

Feel free, but we then have have to abandon subjective morality as the only kind. And instead accept the existence of at least some objective truths we can’t demonstrate through the scientific method. Which is to say we can embrace faith. Which, in turn, disarms us against theists, giving them a place at the big boy table.

Why do people do it? They parade out the scientific method as the one true reality (um, for what alien species…certainly not humans), ridicule faith as believing in fairy tales, yet turn around and impugn the morality of God and religion. And not as if it was just an opinion, but as if they are speaking from some true, independent, and self evident foundation. As if they can actually build moral evidence against God/religion. But, then when pressed on morality, claim it is subjective. Your opinion? Great. I like blue, you like red.


See, that is the exact response I’m talking about. Nobody lives that way. We all operate as if by moral laws. We will storm out in moral outrage, even. Sounds like there is more to it than just being opinion we all must arrive at on our own, to me.

“There’s no objective moral wrong, but you’re, your God, and your religion are definitely and self evidently wrong…”


Agree with what? I have my doubts


Yep, 100% consensus! Fucking none of us know for sure. We pop one of these type of threads up every once in a while and everyone says the same thing.

Everyone thinks they are right. Maybe I will burn in hell for eternity. Maybe I won’t. But if you’re looking for proof with this it won’t be found today.


Want me to save you a spot?


Sarcasm is harder with written word.

My point is these debates result in everybody believing their original belief harder than before the debate.


Just make sure you don’t go to the hell that results from not believing in Joe Pesci. I hear it is much worse than the Christian hell.

Also, how hard is it to believe in Joe. If you have seen Home Alone, Goodfellas, Casino, or any of the other great films with Pesci, belief should be easy.


People do change their minds about these sorts of things. You never know what effect you might have in the long term.


I always think the religion debate is good fun, until that asshole comes along and has an attitude about it, and gets mad at you for believing or not believing.

I dont believe. I still uphold myself to a strong sense of morality. I do things that I think would benefit me without harming others. I help people when I see that they need help. Their religion has 0 impact on me unless they ostracize me for my lack of one. I’m probably a bit more selfish, but not in a harmful way.

I dont need God to tell me not to be a dick. However some people do. Whether that’s all they were taught, maybe through recovery they needed something to devote their mental energy to… you never know.

Believing in a higher power doesnt make you an idiot. Not believing in anything doesnt make me cold hearted and evil. It’s pretty simple logic.


The “religion debate” has “done things as far as cause wide scale murder,” or people have committed widespread murder in the name of religion? Do you think people would be more peaceful without religion? Do you not think it’s possible/probable that people would commit the same crimes in the name of XYZ(favorite color, maybe) if religions didn’t exist? I don’t know the answers, but it’s hard for me to imagine people being less screwed up in the absence of religion.



Not at all. I wholeheartedly acknowledge that religion is very important to societal development and as a way to control peoples across borders.

Imo we’re absolutely better off with the existence of religion.

That being said, that doesn’t earn it a pass for consistently being a driving force for negative things


Kind of.

Religion has given a common narrative to bunches of far away people, connecting them. Once you have that, you can afford bigger conquests.

Which might not be so bad in the really big picture for the progeny of the conquered.


Without religion humans would pack together in groups and dislike other groups for another reason. It comes from us being heard animals, and distrusting other groups.

Religion provided a really efficient way to organize people into a heard. Belonging to a social group is a huge human need. Another great example is politics.

That being said, historically, religious tribes attacking each other for being the “wrong” religion was/is pretty common. See the crusades, the inquisition, the French wars of religion, etc…


Don’t forget Islam.


Therefore, not attacking each other in warfare.