T Nation

Hi God. Are You There? Are You Real?


#461

Thanks for that, I had forgotten

Sure. This is consistent with the set of stances I can remember taking here.

Then again, I’m starting to have some serious doubts. What were the literacy levels like during the setting(s) you had in mind? Not that I expect you to “go fetch” the information - it’s just a thought

I have no interest in debating “the right interpretation” with you either. I don’t claim to have it, I don’t claim that I would recognize it if it slapped me in the face. It might not even exist. Is the sincere search for it so bad? If so, then why?


#462

A lot of people have experienced the same over interpretations of love, romance, and family. Half of women homicide victims are killed by intimates. I wouldn’t impugn love, romance, or the family over it.

Saying people have experienced those things because of interpretations of religion is about as meaningful as pointing out people have experienced them over interpretations of governance, borders, distribution of people and wealth, order, liberty, rights, what progress is, love, whatever.

Religion is a nearly universal human experience. If we could restart human history over and over again I’d wager it would always emerge as a nearly defining feature of our species, time after time. Evidenced in even paleolithic human pre-history by the way we buried our dead. And still going strong today. Of course one will find examples of anything stemming from it.


#463

The question was why would a serious deep look into such a thing be the easiest way to harm a lot of people?

Easiest way would be up for debate. It has been though. As for the rest of it no disagreement really. I still think it’s valuable to point out that really old books essentially no one agrees on the meaning of have led to lots of bloodshed.

I mean these are supposed to be holy texts. If Charlie and the Chocolate Factory had been connected to the same amount of bloodshed wouldn’t it be worth pointing out? Or saying “hey a lot of people who read that book have ended up killing because of it.” Maybe don’t take the book literally? Maybe examine if we should continue to read the book? Examine if we should try hard to convince others to read it?

The thread is about God though. End of the day though people are free to believe in fairy tales. Niece just lost her first tooth and I’ll be damned if the tooth fairy didn’t hook her up with some money. Religion just makes money quicker and more consistently for certain people. It’s the tooth fairy on steroids.

I’d be thanking God too if I was flying in my private jet paid for by members of my tax free church.


#464

And what is wrong with that? If it makes money then it must be providing a service. Am I to be morally outraged over the evilness of getting wealthy with fairy tales? That would require a set of fairy tales (good/evil) from which to judge. The universe doesn’t care if we tell ourselves fairy tales to get through our ultimately pointless and doomed existence. It doesn’t care about us at all.


#465

Here is the ultimate truth in a godless universe. The medical scientist ultimately has no more value or purpose than the prosperity pastor Osteen clone. It’s survival until the death of the universe wipes us out anyways. Assuming we didn’t self extinct. There is nothing wrong or evil with a big monied pastor.


#466

I’m glad that at this point we all agree. I didn’t think we would get here, but here we are.

Nobody has proven to me god exists, but if they were to present evidence that was solid, I would have to change my mind.

For now I’ll keep praying to Joe Pesci. Seems to be exactly as effective as when I prayed to god. I do think enough evidence is present to believe in the existence of Joe, but I’ve yet to be convinced of his wish granting abilities.


#467

I’d argue that the pastor is being selfish. But, guess what? He’s surviving better than 99% of the population.


#468

Which makes him more competitive in reproduction. The purpose of life, if it has any (it doesn’t), is to pass on mindless genes. It doesn’t care if you’re a wealthy philandering (more reproduction) pastor of some prosperity mega church. It doesn’t care if he uses violence to spread it either. If it is a successful stragety for that person (or society)…Then what? Rely on some un testable idea of wrong/evil to claim it is wrong? Thought we were anti fairy Tale. Real men of science.


#469

Selling snake oil in a tax free business is selfish? I’m just jealous.


#470

Do you take issue with Ponzi scheme’s that are run on people to scam them out of their savings? Providing a service isn’t inherently something to be alright with on it’s face

Not baiting, just curious.


#471

Yes, but I admit to believing in “fairy tales.” The question is why do I find them wrong. Even if I myself could succeed in pulling it off.


#472

If this is the case

Then the answer to this question is absolutely yes.

You just don’t believe the tales of your religion are fairy tales.


#473

But I am asking about those who claim to believe only in the observable. There is nothing wrong with ponzi schemes. Unless one believes in some rules about how humans ought to behave.


#474

Then it becomes a subjective decision that each person must make on their own instead of accepting the decision their religion would make for them.


#475

If it is subjective then it is no more wrong than having chosen the ‘wrong’ favorite color


#476

In an absolute sense? Sure.

In reality a subjective decision isn’t made in a vacuum and you will still end up with the side effects from your fellow man.


#477

Joel Osteen is doing well. So he must have made the ‘right’ subjective decision. Religion has been a dominant human condition. So, it and it’s people too must have made the ‘right’ subjective decisions.


#478

Hmm, sounds too certain. It isn’t objectively owed to anyone as a moral obligation.


#479

I don’t think you’ll find a sane person who disagrees with this. The same could easily be said of all uncaptured/arrested scam artists and conmen in history though

Not even sure what this means tbh


#480

Frankly I believe the just the facts, what can be observed, scientific method for all things types are fooling themselves. It is almost certaintly not how they live or truly would want the world to operate. It would be such an alien expe experience.

It has always amused me to hear/see the moral outrage at God of those who reject what they can’t measure. It’s just, like, your opinion dude. Your outrage is then as meaningless as outrage over a wrong favorite color. In your universe there actually isn’t a wrong way to do life on Earth. We can be just a authoritative theocratic as we want