T Nation

Hi God. Are You There? Are You Real?


#421

I don’t think I’m making my point clear. Sure, God may be able to create fairness. But, if we cannot understand his fairness or act in accordance with it, how can his concept of fair be fair? Again, this is paradoxical.


#422

I would say you are always acting in accordance with it, without understanding it - ditto for me or anyone else

I would advise you to think deeper about what you are really saying, with no disrespect intended

Is my concept of fairness unfair because the child next to me doesn’t understand it?

Why would He be dependent on us, in any sense of the word? Why would His fairness be dependent on us?

It’s like your question assumes that we are closer to perfection than He is.

Hope you stick around - I might learn something

If any sort of absolute Fairness exists anywhere, it’s His. We can have concepts about God that might fall short of His greatness. God is not stuck with an inferior concept about fairness that falls short of the “greatness of actual fairness”


#423

If I happen to be the determinant of that child’s eternal fate based on a set of rules he cannot possibly understand, then I would say that my concept of fairness is indeed unfair to the child.


#424

Interesting.

Regardless of the set of rules, the particular ruling, or the particular child?

Would you apply that to adults as well?


#425

Well, here’s the thing. We’re generalizing the “child” in this scenario to be the entire human race, because the human race doesn’t suddenly begin to evolve into divine beings capable of understanding the concept that an “adult” (God) may or may not have set forth. In this scenario, the “child” never grows up and the rules don’t change (because God’s concepts are, presumably, not continuously changing). How many 3 year olds can follow the rules of a corporate business, even if they happen to be the smartest 3-year old to ever exist?


#426

Maybe not “completely”, but humanity seems to have done some growing up

I don’t know man, it looks like you’re just assuming God will/would be overly harsh by not being able to factor that in.

The ideas are internally consistent, even if a bunch of bogus


#427

Of course their ideas are internally consistent. When they hide behind a supposed God that can bend his own unchangable rules because he is, after all, omnipotent; how could they possibly be wrong about anything? God can account for any and all conceptions man may have about him, thereby relegating religion to the cycle that is paradoxical reasoning (the unchangable rules of right and wrong are subject to a God that can change the rules of right and wrong, according to humans who have no idea of what right and wrong actually mean outside of their societies).


#428

A couple of things: when all is said and done, it always ends up with people playing god. Also, fairness is a human concept and God is not human so we shouldn’t project how we think onto god.


#429

And yet, it is fair for Him to project His Way of thinking onto us (which, again, we have no way of understanding) lest we suffer eternal torture.


#430

Ancient egyptian’s worshipped the egyptian God’s (Their religion) far before god/christ came along. Some power hungry lunatic wrote a bunch of made up shit and called it the bible (like every other creation of various religions). There were religions around before god so how can god be real when other religions were worshipped before the bible. The first First biblical text is dated to 408 BC to 300 AD. The egyptians were around alot before that. The pyramids were built 3000 BC. Religion is a scam.


#431

You know that gulf in intillect and awareness between you and an ant? A seemingly infinite distance between you two. So distant you don’t even think twice about the ant before you have its world torn apart with a bulldozer so you can get a more local Starbucks put up.

The gulf between God and you infinitely exceeds the one between you and the ant. Fair? God determines fair. If God wished to cease holding reality in existence tomorrow it would be God’s prerogative and right. It is awe inspiring that such a being would have any consideration for us at all. Certainly more impressive than our own for the lowly ant.

If fair, good, moral obligations, and rights exist at all as objective things then they do so at the will of an all powerful being. Not independently in the deaf, dumb, and cold universe that won’t spare a single thought for us pitiful critters when its heat death consumes all things.


#432

Two points

God desires humans to seek him out. Billions have historically, and to us, he is both “there and real”.
Also he is the only sovereign being and his nature has a duality - both love and just.

As the sovereign, it is he that is putting on the feast.
In love, he has sent an invitation to every person to attend.
In justice, he will one day close the door to those who chose not to attend the feast.

Do yourself a favor, seek him out while he can still be found.


#433

Is that why theres so many homeless people, people getting tortured, raped and murdered, war, Diseases, starvation etc etc? Doesnt seem very love filled or just


#434

So God is doing this?
Or is it man doing it to fellow man?


#435

Did God not create all of those diseases?


#436

If god is so great why doesn’t he stop it from happening?


#437

In religious debate this won’t get you anywhere. We aren’t capable of understanding God’s reasoning therefore it won’t be debated.


#438

If this is true, this god is doing it in a very odd way by not presenting any evidence and hoping people believe old anecdotal accounts that can not be proven or disproven. If a person tried to convince me of anything in such a way I would smile and wait until they grow past the age of 4 so I could show them the scientific method, they could understand evidence, and then they could use reason just like we do for literally any other understanding we have of the world around us.


#439

We use the scientific method to discern between right and wrong? In determining the continued worth of the elderly woman? In our minute by minute interactions with friends and loved ones? The scientific method might let us split atoms, but it has nothing to say about the rightness or wrongness of using that knowledge to either provide energy to a city or to blow it up. It’s silent on the matter of soup lines and charity in general.

We are human beings, not some sci fi species operating off of cold hard scientific method alone. Not even remotely close. That would be some alien none of us would recognize.


#440

We can yes, although not everyone agrees on the grey areas where that continuous to get hashed out. Evidence and reason have led us to answers on many right/wrong questions, I would argue more so than any other thing (such as religion) has.

To your edit: never said we weren’t human beings, or that using evidence and reason doesn’t make you a human being. That’s a very odd train of thought