T Nation

Hi God. Are You There? Are You Real?


I wouldn’t say either side is ‘his enemy’ (you brought up enemies, not me). But if one side HAD to be his enemy in this scenario, imo it wouldn’t be secularists like you said.


Who would line up to oppose his ability to act on his secularly derived stance? Largely secular leaning folk.


Why wouldnt religious folk, who’s teachings of the universe tell them to not hate people, not oppose his view again?

Are Catholics currently arguing Muslims should be able to act in accordance with their personal views? That would be news to me


So, who is going to end up being the opposition to him following his secularly derived position? I doubt it will be the religious. It will largely be composed of the secular minded.


It would?


I would assume the same as the religious based example that actually happened. The govt.

Except instead of being given a pass because of your religion, said baker loses the court case and is forced to bake the cake.

Absolutely lol


And he would have his fellow secularists to blame. And that’s where I am confused. The religious aren’t opposing him.


Why would he blame the secularists? The religious people are the ones who wrote the laws saying he can’t discriminate unless on religious grounds.

Unless Congress stopped being 99% religious and nobody told me


Why would I blame the religious for secularists not wanting to hold onto their freedom of association? If secularists want to strip their fellows of the freedom of conscience/association, I am not going to blame the religious.


Because they wrote the law making it illegal for him to discriminate on any grounds that aren’t religious?

Seems we’re getting to the point where this isn’t going anywhere. Happy to agree to disagree on whether or not it’s easier to be religious.

I’d certainly rather be the religious baker


Guarantee religious organizations would line up to defend his secularly derived conscience. It feels like blaming the religious because they refused to surrender their moral conscience alongside the secularist. In the scenario there is no doubt as to who would oppose the exercise of his conscience, and who would ally with him.

Alright, I appreciate the exchanges with you and the others. Gotta get busier myself.


Sure they would, assuming they also want to discriminate against gays.

If we change the story to the baker no longer supporting Christian weddings, I’m guessing they stop defending him on principle :wink:

Have a good one


I don’t know I think it’s easier not to be religious. I don’t have to dress up on a Sunday and sing boring songs. I don’t have to spend an hour before watching football listening to someone talk. I don’t have to take place in a bizarre cannibal ritual where I drink someone’s blood and eat their body. I don’t have to lose income to be part of the special club. I can let people do what they choose because I don’t have a giant legal document to look at to see whether or not I should despise the person.


It occurred to me at some point that my religion teaches that no amount of outward acts could earn one heaven. And the very real possibility that it was all a waste hit me very deeply - the animal within me became VERY angry at my family for betraying it. My short limited life partially (largely) stolen from me though coersion.

And it also occurred to me around the same time that my prayers and “stuff” are actually a pretty big statement. Sacrificing many opportunity costs in time, energy, focus just because of a huge game of telephone. Was it faith in God that was driving me to do these things, or am I just reacting to external stimuli? Following a habit? Going through the motions? An animal following the tribe?

I’m pretty sure lack of sincerity is easier than sincerity, regardless of religion or not. Sincere religious devotion is very positive in my current view, I wasn’t as capable when I was younger


Change your belief. Can you still buy your way into forgiveness in the Catholic Church? Makes sense to have the wealthy have advantages in everything including obtaining salvation.


Were you raised Catholic?
Just curious.




Beliefs are a bit strange, we have many that we aren’t conscious of. I didn’t understand my religion as much as I thought I did before - even though I was practicing.

I probably still don’t understand it all that well, but I can see that renewing/deepening my sincerity gives rise to bunches of smaller beliefs that tend towards making the world a better place

Always have been


So, if there is no objective way to judge what is right and wrong; how could a fair God possibly determine what is right and wrong, or fair and unfair? This is paradoxical.


A more powerful God than you are envisioning that can create right, wrong, fair, unfair rather than discover it