T Nation

HGH for Bone Density?


#1

I have low bone density, and I was wondering if anyone on here knew of any growth hormones that my doctor could prescribe me that would help. Because I've done some research and found only prescriptions that were mainly high in estrogen.


#2

I doubt you want the acromegaly that is going to come with the extra bone density you are looking for from HGH. I would look at other avenues, directed by your dr. Docs are usually not too keen on being told what to prescribe you anyway.


#3

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#4

Thanks for the helpful advise bushido, I really appreciate it. And I am getting more labs done.


#5

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

I’m surprised that the general medical community (who spend VAST amounts each year, trying to offset osteoporosis) haven’t cottoned onto the BMD-promoting effects of GH. Even my sodding orthopaedic field guide (compiled and illustrated by the inestimable Frank Netter) states that Gh is responsible for stimulating osteoblastrs, yet the Drs want to put men on estrogen, for God sake.

[/quote]

Nothing surprises me any more. GH is effective, safe, and improves quality of life. Surely it should be banned? LOL. It’s a bloody elixir for all sorts of ailments, and we can’t have that!


#6

I believe a big problem is popular belief. The belief that stops the more widespread use of GH (et al).

If you mention ‘Growth Hormone’ to a common/all garden joe public, they will simply think Gigantism, Heavy & thick brows, long swinging arms and general disfigurement (picture the 9’ chinese giants in wheelchairs)!
They picture the words ‘Growth’ and ‘Hormone’ and think why would you want that unless you are medically short, what possible use could it have?

Also, most people (ie. Governments and conservative thinkers - who largely rule Governments movements whether liberal or not…) frown on the use of ANY drug for the betterment of oneself, or for enjoyment - unless prescribed for widely accepted medical reasons, or alcohol.

It is my opinion, and i know i am not alone - that everyone over 30 should be allowed the option for GH prescriptions, and anyone over 40 should be allowed HRT (or anyone presenting low hormone levels). Women get HRT as standard. Because they make life miserable for every poor sod around them during their menopause. Men just quietly step off bridges…

I often forget how many ‘normal’ people see AAS and Gh etc… as it is so normal for me. I am constantly surrounded by the drugs and they are an integral part of my life.
When i speak to other like minded people about it - the most knowledgeable people seem to be online - i feel like it is more widely accepted than it actually is.

I just feel impotent (metaphorically cunts…) in my ability to change the modern perception of PED’s for either general performance enhancement in sports/activity, or especially in their use for a better life, as AAS and GH can be used.

/rant!

Brook


#7

Boy do I look like the asshole at the top of the thread. I’d say more but I’m having trouble talking around the foot in my mouth :wink: Sorry OP. I


#8

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Boy do I look like the asshole at the top of the thread. I’d say more but I’m having trouble talking around the foot in my mouth :wink: Sorry OP. I[/quote]

lol! i didnt even see that! sorry mate… ;p


#9

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#10

In Eugene Shippen’s book, The Testosterone Syndrome, he discusses how T is needed to maintain or restore the collagen matrix on which everything else is built. Get the book and read it.

hGH with low T levels would not make much sense


#11

Low free T level definitely contributes to diminishing bone density. TRT IMO would improve bone density.


#12

From Steroidology
(originally posted by AnimalMass)

"While injecting test increases protein synthesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% – more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It’s like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can’t tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position – winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don’t get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen synthesis while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

Deca, Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a ‘normal’ physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want – an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood.

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% – less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% – slightly better than deca.

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle Clomid use. Here they are:

Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner – the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I’ve read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good – they increase several biomakers of collagen syn – ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS – the decision is up to you."


#13

[quote]kplummer wrote:
I have low bone density, and I was wondering if anyone on here knew of any growth hormones that my doctor could prescribe me that would help. Because I’ve done some research and found only prescriptions that were mainly high in estrogen.[/quote]

Most of the treatments doctors will WANT to use these days are not going to be HGH or androgens, unfortunantly.

They are going to try to put you on their latest “wonder drug” for aging women post menopause and men undergoing treatment for prostate cancer (read as: “no testosterone production”):

Bisphosphonates, they inhibit osteoclasts, and hence slow down bone destruction. This causes you to stop losing bone as quickly, and in many cases, is capable of swinging the bone creation/destruction ratio in the other direction.

So you will actually gain bone density.

They are at best a short term fix, sideeffects are up in the air, long term effects unknown for the most part. Weird reports are coming in about weird bone fractures and other strange problems on these drugs.

I would avoid them like the plague.

HGH and testosterone are a much better choice.

The medical community always wants to treat the SYMPTOMS and never the actual PROBLEM itself.

Erectile dysfunction drugs, antidepressants, bisphosphonates, etc.

When most of the common problems associated with aging are simply lack of hormone levels.

The whole “risk of cancer” thing is a valid arguement for allowing testosterone and estrogen levels to drop from peak levels for the general population.

But there is no reason for the complete “avoidance dance” around hormone supplementation, like we see today from the medical community.

Rediculous yes, but from their perspective “effective”

I would highly recommend pushing for HGH and test, and if you cant get it, self medicate.


#14

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#15

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Westclock wrote:
Bisphosphonates, they inhibit osteoclasts, and hence slow down bone destruction. This causes you to stop losing bone as quickly, and in many cases, is capable of swinging the bone creation/destruction ratio in the other direction.

So you will actually gain bone density.

.

Are you sure about this? I doubt you will actually regain BMD, since no-one does, once they pass into skeletal maturity (about 20-23yrs). You achieve a peak BMD which then declines as you age. Slowing the action of osteoclasts will slow BMD loss, but unless you stimulate osteoblasts, the end result will always be a net loss.

BBB[/quote]

The way I understand it, bisphosphonates reduce the action of osteoclasts, and since bone turnover and remodelling is constantly occuring - the net effect is shift towards increase in BMD rather than decrease or equilibrium.

However, bisphosphonates have a very real side effect of osteonecrosis, especially in the lower jaw - a very aggressive and destructive process. There are better ways of managing osteoporosis…


#16

[quote]Dave_ wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:

I’m surprised that the general medical community (who spend VAST amounts each year, trying to offset osteoporosis) haven’t cottoned onto the BMD-promoting effects of GH. Even my sodding orthopaedic field guide (compiled and illustrated by the inestimable Frank Netter) states that Gh is responsible for stimulating osteoblastrs, yet the Drs want to put men on estrogen, for God sake.

Nothing surprises me any more. GH is effective, safe, and improves quality of life. Surely it should be banned? LOL. It’s a bloody elixir for all sorts of ailments, and we can’t have that!
[/quote]

no doubt… a few months ago i was using a GH secretogue for injury recovery purposes (worked very well by the way) and I had what I thought was an allergic reaction or some sort of infection from an injection so I went to the hospital to get checked out and they treated me like some sort of criminal. asshole doctor hadn’t even heard of the peptide I was taking but that didn’t stop him from degrading me in front of the whole emergency room. i did my own research and alleviated my pain myself, using an illegal substance. the alternative would have been to get on prescription NSAID’s for life and quit training. Fuck them all.


#17

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#18

This is steroid-induced osteroporosis, but either way it’s still a case of osteoclasts vs osteoblasts when it comes down to it;

“Effect of Bisphosphonates on Bone Mineral Density After Renal Transplantation as Assessed by Bone Mineral Densitometry”

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VJ0-4NHG3R0-1G&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=0cdb12f31e497ed5817f0f2e61c915a3

“Pathogenesis of osteoporosis: concepts, conflicts, and prospects”
Lawrence G. Raisz

http://www.jci.org/articles/view/27071/version/1

The latter article is pretty comprehensive, I wish I had time to read the whole lot at the moment. Unfortunately, I all need to know for my exam re: this topic on monday is osteoporosis = probably on bisphosphonates = check for osteonecrosis of the jaw. Haha.

It may be that your osteoporotic lady had particularly compromised osteoblast function, in which case what she says is true for her, but not necessarily everyone with osteoporosis.


#19

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Dave_ wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
Westclock wrote:
Bisphosphonates, they inhibit osteoclasts, and hence slow down bone destruction. This causes you to stop losing bone as quickly, and in many cases, is capable of swinging the bone creation/destruction ratio in the other direction.

So you will actually gain bone density.

.

Are you sure about this? I doubt you will actually regain BMD, since no-one does, once they pass into skeletal maturity (about 20-23yrs). You achieve a peak BMD which then declines as you age. Slowing the action of osteoclasts will slow BMD loss, but unless you stimulate osteoblasts, the end result will always be a net loss.

BBB

The way I understand it, bisphosphonates reduce the action of osteoclasts, and since bone turnover and remodelling is constantly occuring - the net effect is shift towards increase in BMD rather than decrease or equilibrium.

However, bisphosphonates have a very real side effect of osteonecrosis, especially in the lower jaw - a very aggressive and destructive process. There are better ways of managing osteoporosis…

Well I used to train an osteoporotic lady who was on biphosphonates, She was told that all the drug could do is slow down the rate of BMD loss. This makes sense, since even in a ‘normal’ person, you can never increase BMD, once you get past your peak density. OP patients have an accelerated rate of BMD loss and biphosphonates slow this down, but there can never be an increase in BMD untill you add in osteoblastic stimulators.

BBB[/quote]

To the best of my understanding with these drugs, which is limited, they can increase bone density, but only because those placed on them have generally experienced significant bone density loss in the first place.

They can bring you back up, closer, to a bone density level you were at before.

Technically this is “growing new bone” but really your just regaining bone density that you once had.

I do not believe they can stimulate new growth, simply swing the turn over ratio.