T Nation

HGC : during or after

I have looked up the forum debates and read from the pros. The opinions still vary on when to take HGC, and if to take it at all. People on teh forum say DURING while numerous printed books and well respected guru’s say “AFTER” . Yo, do any of you guys have any real world experience with this stuff? Won’t taking it during a cycle defeat the purpose? ( nutts shrink again from aas). Give me some feedback please.

Oh come on bro… that’s the whole point, if you take it during cycle, then your balls never shrink. The reason your balls shrink during a cycle is that your axis of wonders stops telling your balls to make test. HCG is like a direct lutenizing hormone message to the balls, thus bypassing your HPGA’s little system of checks and balances… you produce test even in the presence of extensive androgens. Taking it after cycle is MORONIC!!! Your first concern should be to restore LH production. Well, if you are supplying your balls with artificial LH, then your pituitary doesn’t need to make any and you do not resume production. Right when you stop the HCG, you are in the same position as if you had just stopped the cycle. In addition, the HCG temporarily desensitizes your balls to LH messages, thus making your recovery even harder. So now you have let your balls decay during the cycle, and slowed down your recovery post cycle. GOOD IDEA! Take it during or don’t take it at all. SOMEONE ARGUE WITH ME I FUCKING DARE YOU!

i agree with the fact that hcg will delay recovery. however,at dosages of 500 to 1000 iu,i believe the whole descentisization issue is overblown. in theory your testes are used to recieveing a certain level of signals from your LH,when using hcg at high dosages,the testes then become accostomed to high dosages of LH,hence not responding well to normal lh signals. this is debated but i have found no medical data to support it. that said,i would suspect that high dosages of hcg could do that as every other drug eventually causes a tolerance issue. hcg at small dosages during a cycle is a very smart thing to do in my opinion.
mxim

Energy is great squatty. COME ON, SOMEONE ARGUE!!!

Well, when you take it DURING what dosages and when? 500iu EOD or on the weekends in say 3000iu’s or some shit like that?

#2 Squatty, what do you have to say to Will L, author of anabolics 2000, 2002, 2004, who doesn’t say to take it during BUT AFTER. Chad Nichlos says after, EVEN PRO bodybuilders say " HGC after then follow up with clomid after the HGC". That is where my question arose from. Please tell me why these guys are assholes. Either they are missing out on some very critical “Squatty Science”, hence your well written post, ORRRRRRRRRR you are missing out on some of their science and experience. DEFEND YOURSELF! I DARE YOU!

Howdy,

I’ll weigh in here, but seeing as I don’t weigh as much as Squatty I’ll refrain from calling him names. Besides, I mostly agree with him.

I have used HCG post-cycle in the William Llewellyn protocol. It was kind of stupid, because my balls hadn’t really lost any significant size. Then I found out that your nads can become permanently desensitized from using HCG.

I don’t ever intend to use it again - it just isn’t worth the risk, and it’s nice to have a break from lugging around huge nads.

Squatty was spot on in everything he stated. I don’t care what Chad Nichols says or anyone else. I don’t care if Brock Strasser himself came over here and agreed, I still wouldn’t believe it. That’s common knowledge among anyone who’s done their homework.

And to add more to what he said - don’t take it for longer than 10-14 days.

Dammit, I hit submit by accident. Here’s the rest:

If you do take it for longer than I previously stated, then you would be asking for trouble like Gyno and/or a permanent natural Test level decrease due to desensification of the Leydig cells of the Testes to Leutenizing Hormone(LH).

Merlin is dead on the money here… I have explained exactly what happens if you use HCG for post cycle recovery. Willy L is one of the believers that your balls need a “jump start” post cycle. Well, you may be getting a jump start but when you disconnect the HCG cables, your balls will be in a worse position than before. The best prescribed use of HCG that I have seen is by Bacheldor, after three weeks of a cycle, he stops for 7 days and does 1000 iu of HCG for 5 of the seven. This halts gonadotrophic activity in the balls. He then says to resume the cycle for another two weeks, after which only clomid is used. Do you see what he is doing here? He is not worrying about restoring LH mid cycle, just making sure that your balls don’t atrophy after three weeks. The HCG halts the atrophy in its tracks. Then when it is time to recover, he focuses on nothing but LH therapy. 1000 ius a day is low enough not to cause and desensitization, 5 days is short enough not to cause desensitization, atrophy is prevented, and when the cycle is over, proper recovery takes place. Simply brilliant yet so simple.

ok, now im really confused. We have established that we all believe in HGC DURING a cycle ( and I am assuming this is from experience, not you guys playing fuckin doctor). Squatty, I have never heard that theory before. I have heard of 2 on 1 off 3 on, type of cycle, but never reallly payed attention to it. Give me an example of an 8 week cycle WITH HGC in it. I can’t picture it. Say a basic Test/EQ/D-bol cycle. How would you run it? How do YOU run your cycles? Do you guys practice what you preach?

( I was gonna say Test/DECA/d-bol, but I know this thread would of turned into something else…haha)

oh yeah, is is HGC even necessary when doing a mild cycle? I know a shit load of people who don’t even use it. Does everyone here use it? If not, why?

It’s HCG, not HGC…that’s kinda been bugging me. (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin)

It’s probably one of the most misunderstood drugs around, and we could easily go back and forth for a very long time about the proper way to use it. But there is not so much controversy about what it does, and then we can let everyone make their own conclusions. I think this is a good topic because I’m sure there are very many out there that know very little about HCG.

In our body, the function of it is to
stimulate Leydig cells in the testes (simlilar to LH) to produce testosterone even when there is no endogenous LH around.

So, personal opinion would state that HCG should be used during longer cycles to maintain your boys, OR to give them a pick-me-up to prepare for post-cycle. You should do this because small nuts produce smaller amts of T, and this is BAD.

Many bodybuilders believe in HCG post-cycle thinking is will help them get there T-levels back, but it is simply not true. It just leads to further inhibition of the HPTA from the spike in testosterone (and oestregen from aromatization).

HCG does not restore the natural testosterone production.

I’ll stop there, because I don’t like long posts. If there is more interest/controversy we can expound on much more with HCG. ie dosages, how it works, etc. As I said, I think this is a good subject and we could all learn a little. <<

Post your thoughts, or ARGUE WITH ME, I DARE YOU!!

i have been saying essentially what the squat man said, since i have been on this board. he is absolutely right and stated his case well. dont just say that joe shmoe doesnt agree. state the reason why this point is wrong. it cant be done since the facts are simple. hcg inhibits recovery of the hpta. this is a non issue while in since we are inhibited anyways. this is a huge issue when off since we are trying to restore its function. case closed as far as i am concerned.

Can you guys site where you have found your hCg info from? just curious because I have gotten mine from Will L, a few bodybuilding sites, and some pros who I met. This is the only forum that says use it DURING. I truely like your facts, but where did you hear them? Please state the studies. It just bothers me that the best in the world of past and present used the shit after a cycle and you guys from a forum are the only ones “I know” saying that this is retarded, meanwhile I see no real world studies or guinea pigs of the during theory. If its not broke, don’t fix it. I am just playing devils advocate.

You’d be hardpressed to find a real expert on this subject. And most of the information here isn’t proven in clinical studies on people that use aas, because there is very little info out there for that. Almost everything in this game is the same way; we have to just look at the science we do have.

Both myself and Squatty explained how it works. It’s black and white. Has any pro explained scientifically the reasons why their way is better?

Although HCG does stimulate endogenous testosterone production, it doesn’t help in regaining the normal HPTA. The hypothalamus and pituitary are still down after a steroid cycle, and remain this way while HCG is being used, because the endogenous testosterone produced as a result of the exogenous HCG represses the endogenous LH production. Once the HCG is discontinued, then the ACTUAL post-cycle can begin. So there is absolutely no point in taking is after your regular cycle, because that is almost the same as extending your cycle.

As for your dosages, that is debateable as well. More is not necessarily better with this. I’ve seen it mentioned at 5000iu every five days. Also (and I prefer this) you can do 500-1000iu/ed. Starting lower is better until you get a feel for what you personally respond to. If your boys aren’y up to par after a few days, just increase your dosage. It’s easy to just start out with the max dose, but you don’t want to desensitize the leydig cells, making the real post-cycle less effective.

I don’t think I have to show any more proof. I would take my science and understanding over these “pros” advice until they can show me something in writing. And this board is not the only place that says DURING is better than AFTER. I always thought it was common knowledge in fact.

most of my info has come from bro’s such as rainbow, swale, bill roberts, etc.

can any give a sample cycle with HGC during? is 500iu over an extended period of time bad? examples are welcome

I like long posts… read up…

Balls Like Michael Jackson

Q: I’m in my late 30’s and I’ve been receiving 400 mg of Test depot every three weeks. However, my nuts have shrunk. Obviously, I’m experiencing some negative feedback. Would I do well to quit the T for awhile and undergo some hCG therapy? How much? How long?

A: I’m adamantly against the use of hCG in order to restore testicular function. Why? Simply put, it doesn’t do that!

Not only that, but it can actually cause down-regulation of LH/hCG receptors which would cause the testicles to become less responsive to therapy in the future as well as to your own LH. If done long enough, you’ll have hypogonadism which won’t be able to be treated since your testicles won’t respond to LH.

The only other option is Testosterone therapy for the rest of your life. I’ve been preaching this for some time now, but people don’t seem to listen. Again, recently it was shown that in men who used hCG, LH was reduced significantly, as was FSH. So, in fact, what you’re doing is further prolonging the process of recovery by using hCG.

Is there a time when hCG is actually warranted? Well, I suppose if you can’t stand to have low testicular volume during a cycle then you can use it, but ultimately, you’re doing much more harm than good. The other reason would probably be if you’re wishing to get your wife pregnant. Other than that, I don’t, nor will I ever recommend the use of hCG as things like clomiphene and letrozole actually work to correct the problem. (36)

hCG: More Bad News

Q: A friend of mine undergoes concurrent T and hCG therapy, long-term. Any dangers of this protocol?

A: As I mentioned above I’m strongly against the use of hCG. As far as dangers, there aren’t any immediate dangers aside from possible gynecomastia. Still, this protocol is likely to cause longer suppression and perhaps even a slight and permanent loss of testicular responsiveness to LH/hCG because of the usage of hCG.

i use hcg at 250i.u’s every saturday and sunday throughout. got that from swale. works great

drago, thanks for the example, others are welcome

squatty - so this guy is basically saying HGC is no good for recovery? He is the only interview I heard that is against it totally. Thanks for the info. Who answered these interview questions?

drago, how long do you continue use of hcg? The entire cycle? Every cycle? Could you elaborate a little? How many times have you used it, too? Thanks.