HFSW and Twice a Day Training

Trevshenko · November 11, 2013, 1:41pm

Hey CT and everyone else.

Been sieving through some of the older stuff on here and read a bit about the HFSW with doing 4 lifts 5/6 times a week. My first question is does anyone have a write up of all the details of the strength version of it? (Which involved lower reps than the hypertrophy one i believe). As i couldnt find the details on percentages/sets/reps etc and most of the info was in the LiveSpill or something like that.

And on to my main question. In about 5 weeks ill be having a month off from univerity for xmas. During this time ill pretty much have an entirely free schedule other than the odd bit of research and essays. So i was thinking about training twice a day for these 4 weeks or so. My idea was 5/6 days a week do: AM - HFSW work, PM - Layer Workout (ramp, density work, carries).

Providing use some good intraWO nutrition and eat anything not nailed to the floor could this be worth doing do you think?

LoRez · November 11, 2013, 7:50pm

[quote]Trevshenko wrote:
eat anything not nailed to the floor[/quote]

This isn’t really a very sound nutrition strategy for any goal.

Unless that just means all you can eat steak, eggs, spinach, broccoli, and a few other choice vegetables. And then it’s probably ok.

Trevshenko · November 11, 2013, 11:36pm

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]Trevshenko wrote:
eat anything not nailed to the floor[/quote]

This isn’t really a very sound nutrition strategy for any goal.

Unless that just means all you can eat steak, eggs, spinach, broccoli, and a few other choice vegetables. And then it’s probably ok.[/quote]

well i didnt mean it literally. i track my macros every day on myfitnesspal etc. just meant id eat to accomodate for the really high frequency

jppage · November 11, 2013, 11:36pm

I have always trained this way pretty much.I will use 3 or so powerful and explosive lifts combined with sprints as well at times.Then hit my main lift(layers) at my night session. Just make sure you take care of your nutrition needs.

Trevshenko · November 11, 2013, 11:44pm

[quote]jppage wrote:
I have always trained this way pretty much.I will use 3 or so powerful and explosive lifts combined with sprints as well at times.Then hit my main lift(layers) at my night session. Just make sure you take care of your nutrition needs. [/quote]

Hey jppage. I was going to focus on adding plenty of extra calories intraWO. Over xmas i was just going to train, eat, eat, train, sleep repeat.

Could you out-line a typical day for you? Im thinking HFSW for bench, squat, OHP and deadlift then layer sessions would be ramp, density and carries. hopefully 2 sessions lasting 30-40mins

jppage · November 12, 2013, 12:19am

[quote]Trevshenko wrote:

[quote]jppage wrote:
I have always trained this way pretty much.I will use 3 or so powerful and explosive lifts combined with sprints as well at times.Then hit my main lift(layers) at my night session. Just make sure you take care of your nutrition needs. [/quote]

Hey jppage. I was going to focus on adding plenty of extra calories intraWO. Over xmas i was just going to train, eat, eat, train, sleep repeat.

Could you out-line a typical day for you? Im thinking HFSW for bench, squat, OHP and deadlift then layer sessions would be ramp, density and carries. hopefully 2 sessions lasting 30-40mins[/quote]

Trev.You pretty much laid it out right there.I like SGHP,push press,squats or bench for my morning lifts.I do change and rotate the lifts as well when I feel there getting stale.I ramp up to an explosive weight,nothing even close to a max.I can’t stress that enough.Treat it more like a practice of your lifts and keeping it explosive.I have run myself into a wall a few times trying to go to heavy.My morning HFSW takes me about 35 minutes tops.Hope that helps Trev.

Trevshenko · November 12, 2013, 12:28am

[quote]jppage wrote:

[quote]Trevshenko wrote:

[quote]jppage wrote:
I have always trained this way pretty much.I will use 3 or so powerful and explosive lifts combined with sprints as well at times.Then hit my main lift(layers) at my night session. Just make sure you take care of your nutrition needs. [/quote]

Hey jppage. I was going to focus on adding plenty of extra calories intraWO. Over xmas i was just going to train, eat, eat, train, sleep repeat.

Could you out-line a typical day for you? Im thinking HFSW for bench, squat, OHP and deadlift then layer sessions would be ramp, density and carries. hopefully 2 sessions lasting 30-40mins[/quote]

Trev.You pretty much laid it out right there.I like SGHP,push press,squats or bench for my morning lifts.I do change and rotate the lifts as well when I feel there getting stale.I ramp up to an explosive weight,nothing even close to a max.I can’t stress that enough.Treat it more like a practice of your lifts and keeping it explosive.I have run myself into a wall a few times trying to go to heavy.My morning HFSW takes me about 35 minutes tops.Hope that helps Trev.[/quote]

Thats brilliant. Thank you very much for your help Jppage

Going to go back through the livespill again and find the HFSW strength layout and get planning

Sigil · November 12, 2013, 12:31am

JP-Do you stop the exercise after you hit max explosive weight on morning lifts? Reps/sets? CT’s original hfsw had as much as 3x8 on the main explosive lifts.

Also, what is the goal here? Prime nervous system for pm work? Lets you eat more witout getting fat? Practice lifts?

If you’re doing this daily are you seeing any joint/tissue recovery issues or finding the pm repeated lift gets stale?
Thanks

jppage · November 12, 2013, 2:41am

[quote]-Sigil- wrote:
JP-Do you stop the exercise after you hit max explosive weight on morning lifts? Reps/sets? CT’s original hfsw had as much as 3x8 on the main explosive lifts.

Also, what is the goal here? Prime nervous system for pm work? Lets you eat more witout getting fat? Practice lifts?

If you’re doing this daily are you seeing any joint/tissue recovery issues or finding the pm repeated lift gets stale?
Thanks
[/quote]
Sigil Yep I stop when I hit max explosive weight and It’s mostly 5 sets of 3x5 reps.My goals are to prime my cns not only for my evening lifts but for the day.Get my metabolism humming and force good lifting habits.Like I told Trev I treat them like a practice and a way to amp myself up to start my day.There have been times cause like yourself I can push a little to much and have had some overuse type of soreness but thats why I will swap out and do different lifts.I can’t say that I’ve had any problems with my evening lifts but I did have to cut down on my SGHP’s cause over a long time they did start to catch up to me some.That was when I was trying to hammer In perfect form and like many others were seeing great results with them as well.Hope that helps Sigil.

Sigil · November 12, 2013, 4:34am

Really cool, thanks for the write up jp. I might giving something similar a shot

Trevshenko · November 12, 2013, 1:28pm

Thanks for even more good info JP

I cant find the HFSW strength layout for the life of me so ill probably run something like this:

Movements - Push Press, Squat, Bench Press, Deadlift

Week 1 - 3 x 5 @ 65%
Week 2 - Add 10lbs - 3 x 5
Week 3 - Add 10lbs - 3 x 4
Week 4 - Add 10lbs - 3 x 4
Week 5 - Add 10lbs - 3 x 3
Week 6 - Add 10lbs - 3 x 3

When I say “Week” I mean a 5/6 day cycle as im usually training 5/6 on then 1 off.

Then PM Sessions will be:

Activation lift - 5-4-3-2-1 reps
Ramp to 1RM
Density - 10 reps @ 90%, 20 reps @ 80% fast as possible
Carries - 3 x 1 minute rounds

Ill add an intraWO drink (probably 30g protein, 50g carbs) for my AM session and then some extra carbs during the day to help fuel me through this

jppage · November 12, 2013, 1:48pm

[quote]Trevshenko wrote:
Thanks for even more good info JP

I cant find the HFSW strength layout for the life of me so ill probably run something like this:

Movements - Push Press, Squat, Bench Press, Deadlift

Week 1 - 3 x 5 @ 65%
Week 2 - Add 10lbs - 3 x 5
Week 3 - Add 10lbs - 3 x 4
Week 4 - Add 10lbs - 3 x 4
Week 5 - Add 10lbs - 3 x 3
Week 6 - Add 10lbs - 3 x 3

When I say “Week” I mean a 5/6 day cycle as im usually training 5/6 on then 1 off.

Then PM Sessions will be:

Activation lift - 5-4-3-2-1 reps
Ramp to 1RM
Density - 10 reps @ 90%, 20 reps @ 80% fast as possible
Carries - 3 x 1 minute rounds

Ill add an intraWO drink (probably 30g protein, 50g carbs) for my AM session and then some extra carbs during the day to help fuel me through this[/quote]

Trev looks good.Make sure you use intra W/O drink for your evening session as well.Don’t get the mindset that you have to add the 10lbs every week.Add it if you can but it’s not a big deal if you stick with the same weight.If a morning lift is messing with your evening lift just drop it or swap it out for another lift.

Trevshenko · November 12, 2013, 4:53pm

[quote]jppage wrote:

[quote]Trevshenko wrote:
Thanks for even more good info JP

I cant find the HFSW strength layout for the life of me so ill probably run something like this:

Movements - Push Press, Squat, Bench Press, Deadlift

Week 1 - 3 x 5 @ 65%
Week 2 - Add 10lbs - 3 x 5
Week 3 - Add 10lbs - 3 x 4
Week 4 - Add 10lbs - 3 x 4
Week 5 - Add 10lbs - 3 x 3
Week 6 - Add 10lbs - 3 x 3

When I say “Week” I mean a 5/6 day cycle as im usually training 5/6 on then 1 off.

Then PM Sessions will be:

Activation lift - 5-4-3-2-1 reps
Ramp to 1RM
Density - 10 reps @ 90%, 20 reps @ 80% fast as possible
Carries - 3 x 1 minute rounds

Ill add an intraWO drink (probably 30g protein, 50g carbs) for my AM session and then some extra carbs during the day to help fuel me through this[/quote]

Trev looks good.Make sure you use intra W/O drink for your evening session as well.Don’t get the mindset that you have to add the 10lbs every week.Add it if you can but it’s not a big deal if you stick with the same weight.If a morning lift is messing with your evening lift just drop it or swap it out for another lift.[/quote]

Oh yeh ill be having an intraWO during the PM sessions too. Im essentially making a poor mans PLASMA by buying the core ingredients (or similar substitutes) and mixing it myself. So will be having the equivalent of 2 servings of it during each workout.

I wont get too stuck up on being precise with the weights but im just one of those people who loves to meticulously plan things out… even if i dont end up actually doing it. Ill be playing it by feel as I go through it. Im managing to train every day at the moment pretty much with no problems whatsoever and that while calories are still relatively low and with lots of uni deadlines so im hoping ill be able to adjust pretty well.

Trevshenko · November 15, 2013, 11:39am

So my uni classes actually finish on monday and ive only got an essay and one exam to worry about. Since im finishing a cycle today im going to go ahead and start this earlier than expected. its going to be hell at first i imagine but itll be worth it when i adapt.

So my plan looks like this:

AM - HFSW
Push Press, Squat, Bench Press, Deadlift - Week 1 + 2 - 3 x 5, Week 3 + 4 - 3 x 4, Week 5 + 6 - 3 x 3 - going to start @ 60% of 1RM and conservatively increase it as and when i feel i can. Also going to be alternating between low and high bar squatting for this as i use low bar for my main lifting but my high bar seriously sucks and im sure theyll be carry over.

PM - Layer Workout
Split - Bench Press, Squat, SGHP from blocks, Decline Press from pins, Deadlift
Activation lift (5-4-3-2-1 scheme)
Main Lift - 1RM Ramp, Density work - 15 singles @ 90%
Accessory Lift - Doing a 5 min giant cluster for one accessory exercise
Carries - 3 x 1 minute rounds

Im having trouble picking an accessory lift for the press days. My biggest weakness is my chest, then probably triceps (all my pressing is shoulder dominant) so i was thinking either DB Squeeze Press or Neck/Guillotine Press one day and reverse grip bench press/floor press the other day. Thoughts? I was also thinking about adding in 1 HDL set (5-4-3-2-1 scheme) to the main lift but i think i need to keep the volume low, especially as I first start twice a day.

Nutrition is being upped. Including the 2 workout drinks ill be using ill be getting around 350 protein, 325 carbs, 100 fat. Im floating around 180-182lbs at the moment, gaining weight very slowly but if anything i seem a little leaner over the last 4-6 weeks. I know my protein is ridiculously high but i just find it works for me and to be honest i just enjoy eating alot of meat!

Any criticisms/motivation/feedback is welcomed Not sure if itll be worth my starting a log of this little experiment on here

Colbstar · November 25, 2013, 8:53pm

[quote]Trevshenko wrote:
So my uni classes actually finish on monday and ive only got an essay and one exam to worry about. Since im finishing a cycle today im going to go ahead and start this earlier than expected. its going to be hell at first i imagine but itll be worth it when i adapt.

So my plan looks like this:

AM - HFSW
Push Press, Squat, Bench Press, Deadlift - Week 1 + 2 - 3 x 5, Week 3 + 4 - 3 x 4, Week 5 + 6 - 3 x 3 - going to start @ 60% of 1RM and conservatively increase it as and when i feel i can. Also going to be alternating between low and high bar squatting for this as i use low bar for my main lifting but my high bar seriously sucks and im sure theyll be carry over.

PM - Layer Workout
Split - Bench Press, Squat, SGHP from blocks, Decline Press from pins, Deadlift
Activation lift (5-4-3-2-1 scheme)
Main Lift - 1RM Ramp, Density work - 15 singles @ 90%
Accessory Lift - Doing a 5 min giant cluster for one accessory exercise
Carries - 3 x 1 minute rounds

Im having trouble picking an accessory lift for the press days. My biggest weakness is my chest, then probably triceps (all my pressing is shoulder dominant) so i was thinking either DB Squeeze Press or Neck/Guillotine Press one day and reverse grip bench press/floor press the other day. Thoughts? I was also thinking about adding in 1 HDL set (5-4-3-2-1 scheme) to the main lift but i think i need to keep the volume low, especially as I first start twice a day.

Nutrition is being upped. Including the 2 workout drinks ill be using ill be getting around 350 protein, 325 carbs, 100 fat. Im floating around 180-182lbs at the moment, gaining weight very slowly but if anything i seem a little leaner over the last 4-6 weeks. I know my protein is ridiculously high but i just find it works for me and to be honest i just enjoy eating alot of meat!

Any criticisms/motivation/feedback is welcomed Not sure if itll be worth my starting a log of this little experiment on here[/quote]

Dude that looks awesome. The only thing I would say is try not to ramp yourself up to do any lift… In my own personal experience, when I need to pump myself up before a lift, the rest of my week sucks. ESPECIALLY if you are really going to train twice a day like you say.

It just burns me out bad. For me, I just relax, focus on the queues, push as fast as possible and/or squeeze the muscle as hard as possible depending on the exercise, and do the work.
-Colby

P.S. I love to eat meat too. It just makes me feel good.

Christian_Thibaudeau · November 25, 2013, 9:05pm

[quote]Colbstar wrote:

[quote]Trevshenko wrote:
So my uni classes actually finish on monday and ive only got an essay and one exam to worry about. Since im finishing a cycle today im going to go ahead and start this earlier than expected. its going to be hell at first i imagine but itll be worth it when i adapt.

So my plan looks like this:

AM - HFSW
Push Press, Squat, Bench Press, Deadlift - Week 1 + 2 - 3 x 5, Week 3 + 4 - 3 x 4, Week 5 + 6 - 3 x 3 - going to start @ 60% of 1RM and conservatively increase it as and when i feel i can. Also going to be alternating between low and high bar squatting for this as i use low bar for my main lifting but my high bar seriously sucks and im sure theyll be carry over.

PM - Layer Workout
Split - Bench Press, Squat, SGHP from blocks, Decline Press from pins, Deadlift
Activation lift (5-4-3-2-1 scheme)
Main Lift - 1RM Ramp, Density work - 15 singles @ 90%
Accessory Lift - Doing a 5 min giant cluster for one accessory exercise
Carries - 3 x 1 minute rounds

Im having trouble picking an accessory lift for the press days. My biggest weakness is my chest, then probably triceps (all my pressing is shoulder dominant) so i was thinking either DB Squeeze Press or Neck/Guillotine Press one day and reverse grip bench press/floor press the other day. Thoughts? I was also thinking about adding in 1 HDL set (5-4-3-2-1 scheme) to the main lift but i think i need to keep the volume low, especially as I first start twice a day.

Nutrition is being upped. Including the 2 workout drinks ill be using ill be getting around 350 protein, 325 carbs, 100 fat. Im floating around 180-182lbs at the moment, gaining weight very slowly but if anything i seem a little leaner over the last 4-6 weeks. I know my protein is ridiculously high but i just find it works for me and to be honest i just enjoy eating alot of meat!

Any criticisms/motivation/feedback is welcomed Not sure if itll be worth my starting a log of this little experiment on here[/quote]

Dude that looks awesome. The only thing I would say is try not to ramp yourself up to do any lift… In my own personal experience, when I need to pump myself up before a lift, the rest of my week sucks. ESPECIALLY if you are really going to train twice a day like you say.

It just burns me out bad. For me, I just relax, focus on the queues, push as fast as possible and/or squeeze the muscle as hard as possible depending on the exercise, and do the work.
-Colby

P.S. I love to eat meat too. It just makes me feel good.
[/quote]

No it doesn’t look awesome at all. It’s a recipe for disaster. HFSW and the layer approach are based on two different sets of principles, you can’t just throw in stuff together and think that it will have a 1+1=3 effect… in that specific case it might end up being a 1+1=0 effect because he might burn out.

The layer system itself is VERY hard to recover from as it is.

Colbstar · November 25, 2013, 9:40pm

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote: