T Nation

Hey Mufasa & JMB

Mufasa, I’ve enjoyed some of your posts, especially the fat hard gainer. I think a lot of us natural guys fall into the “get too fat when we overeat” ballpark. Anyway, what do you guys think of JMB’s last article? As a fat hardgainer who trains at 6 pm, I don’t really dig the idea of eating P + F meals all morning & afternoon and P + C until bedtime. It kind of flys in the face of conventional wisdom so much that I think I would second guess myself everytime I ate that 10 pm high carb meal! I was thinking about adopting JMB’s very first staggered approach- 1: P+C, 2:P+F, 3:P+C, 4:P+F, 5/6/7: P+C (pre-workout ,post-workout,1 hour after workout) 8: P + F. Of course, this now viloates some of JMB’s 4 rules. What do you guys think? And Mufasa, what are some of your P + C or P+F meals?

I’ve tried both ways. They’re both pretty much the same. I prefer to eat a P+C meal first thing, then two P+F meals, then P+C 1.5 hours or more before training. Next, 1 sc Surge while training, 1 sc Surge after training. P+C 1-2 hrs after training, then 1 Cup Cottage Chesse right before bed. P+F meals are at least 2.5 hours before or after P+C meals, but two P+F or P+C meals might be within 1.5-2 hrs of each other. Get it? It works.

Thanks, Bryan! Us “Fat Hardgainers” have to stick together! I JUST got my “Testosterone” in the mail today, so I haven’t digested it all yet. However, JB recommended in his “Appetite For Construction/Massive Eating” articles the “Taper” method of Food Combining.In that YOU DO eat P+C meals before lunch and P+F meals afterward and at night. He stated that that is more conducive to fat loss, so that’s the schedule I’ve jumped on.(Lunch, by the way, is a P+C). I ALSO am a 6PM trainer!(Pretty cool, huh?), so “The Taper” works. Also keep in mind that the a.m. P+C meals have hopefully gotten those glycogen stores up AND REMEMBER: you should now be taking “Surge” pre AND post workout. I haven’t really “boinked” on a workout yet. My current carbs seem fine.

Now…I have seven meals a day (I’m considering John’s “Cottage Cheese/Advanced Protein Cheesecake” for the middle of the night, which will sort of make eight meals in a 24 hour period).

Just a final point. My diet and workout are undergoing a LOT of fine-tuning,(thanks to the knowledge I’ve gained from “Testosterone”). And I really think that that is the way ALL our programs should be. Lastly…the meals that I’ve outlined are made up of the Sample Meals that JB placed on the site:

Protein plus Carb:

1)Chicken breast, sweet potato, broccoli.
2)Cottage cheese and fruit.
3)Tuna and fruit or yogurt.
4)Advanced Protein and fruit.
5)MRP with extra scoop of protein and 1/2 cup oatmeal thrown in, banana.
6) 2.5 cups pasta with 1 can tuna mixed in, 1 scoop (20g.) protein.


8 egg whites, then drink a shake made from blending about 1.5 cups water, 1 cup uncooked oatmeal, 1.5 cups plain nonfat yogurt (Eric Serrano said this yogurt is very good for you), 1.5 cups of frozen strawberries. I don’t cook the oatmeal. For mid-morning, blend the same shake, but add 1 scoop Advanced Protein (I don’t eat the eggs this time). Blend this in the morning during breakfast and take it to work. When you need a serious bulk-up this is an easy way to get a lot of carbs/calories at one time. You can increase the amounts and get these meals to over 700 cals. each.

Protein plus Fat

1)Chili with cheese.
2)Pork chops or Ribs and beans.
4)1 c. cottage cheese, 1 scoop protein powder, big salad w/olive oil and vinegar dressing, 1 tbsp flax oil.
5)8-10oz lean beef, salad, 1 tbsp oil.
6)3 scoops whey and 3 tablespoons of flax oil.
7)6 whole eggs with cheddar and cottage cheese.
9)BBQued chicken.

Hope this helps!

Thanks for the detailed info Mufasa! I’m tempted to stick with the Taper, but JMB sure made a convincing argument for hammering in the carbs up to 6 hours after workouts (even at midnight!) Maybe JMB could shed some light- How should a ‘fat hardgainer’ who’s trying to add some mass with minimal fat structure their meal patterns, assuming a 6 pm workout? Is- 1: P+C, 2:P+F, 3:P+C, 4:P+F, 5/6/7: P+C (pre-workout ,post-workout,1 hour after workout) 8: P + F - the best idea? Or is a Taper still the best bet for us?

Bryan, the guys here gave you some good ideas and points, with the exception of one. If you are fat/skinny or fat/hard gainer, I suggest you not use surge preworkout. If you recall the article that started this surge preworkout idea (issue 175, appetite for construction), it was from a study on 35 grams of protein plus 6 grams of essential aminos. It never stated using carbs. As a side note, Charles Polquin uses protein/fat meals only preworkout. After reading the article I started using 37 grams of whey mixed with 5 grams of glutamine powder. My strength increased as well as my overall muscle mass and definition (I am in the fat/hardgainer class). I think that John’s ideas on taking in carbs preworkout are fine if you don’t have a bodyfat problem or are not insulin resistant (25% of North Americans are). Of course the only problem I have with John’s article is why he presented the study showing its benefits and then proceeded to change it. The study showed 35 grams of protein and 6 grams of essential ammino. He stated he started splitting up his drink, which is 18 grams of protein and 36 grams of carbs. Personally I feel most fat/hard gainers need all the protein they can get in and carbs are secondary. This would translate into 35 grams of protein plus 5-7 grams of essential ammino or glutamine preworkout and 35-50 grams of protein plus 50-100 grams of carbs post workout.

The study you are referencing was 35 carbs not protein, and it would be more important for a hardgainer to get both C + P prior.

Ooops, thanks for catching that. I did go back and see my error. Anyway, I still stand by my statement that protein/glutamine vs. protein/carbs is better for the fat/hardgainer not a true skinny/hardgainer. I also feel it depends on the persons insulin sensitivity. I also stand by my statement of post workout nutrition.

BODZ!!! Great to see you back, 'bro! Are 'ya back posting for good? Don’t stay gone so long the next time!

Bodz! Dude! You’re back! Cool! We’ve missed you here, bro…

to mufasa and char-dawg… I’m semi-back, I had a few minutes to blow and hopped on for a while. I’m really busy designing some programs for a website I hope to have up and running by the 1st of the year at the latest, and trying to get this pituitary (brain) tumor condition under control. Its wrecking havock on my mood and energy levels. Now if I could just get the doc to up my test replacement to weekly instead of every two weeks :wink: Thanks for not forgetting me.

Regarding the carbs pre workout study does anyone know if this study was done in the morning in a fastest state? If it was then it makes sense that a pre-workout carb/protein drink would add to the effects. It might also be worth reconsidering this practice for people who don’t train on an empty stomach.

Kelly I believe the study had been done over a fast, in which case you are right, this leads to a significant diference. I believe that is why JMB and other staffers have been reccomending to use the dink during training since the body is more efficient handling the carbs and managing insulin. The only problem I see with the drink during is dieting. Although… if you want to keep carbs around training this might be best…not sure though. It’dbe nice if we had some more studies…Mike

If the study were done after a fast then it wouldn’t be as applicable to those who don’t train when fasting. For example if you train at 6 pm you’ve most likely been eating food all day long and have a relatively stable blood sugar level so taking a carb drink prior to training wouldn’t have the same effect on you as someone whose blood sugar is rather low from not eating in 8-12 hours. I’d like to see another study using this same protocol done in the evening after regular meals have been consumed

Bodz, I’m sure I speak for all of us when I say “get well soon.” One comment I’d like to make though, taking protein + glutamine without ingesting a fat or carb along with that meal will negate the effects of the protein. according to JMB in his last Appetite for Construction article. When the aminos in protein don’t have anything to work with, they will go to waste (in excrement), or they will be stored as fat. So, while taking protein + glutamine may be beneficial pre-workout, adding either carbs or fats to that meal is a necessity.

Schnee, thanks bro. I do want to make a suggestion on your comment about protein without fat or carbs. Just as King said in his article, we all have to come to our own conclusions in everything no matter what studies someone may reiterate.