T Nation


First I will have to thank John M for going against the “modern grain” and reccomending DURATION cardio again.
As everyone knows I have been leaning down with the *help of a few chemicals (like 2-2.5 GRAMS of androgens per week.)
I noticed in a past post John M Berardi said he did 1 hour & 45min daily when getting ready for shows.(45 after training & 1 hour in the morning.)
Well I added 30min 5 times per week and saw BETTER results. Then I bumped up to 1 full hour 7 days a week after my workout & saw EVEN BETTER results.
Now I am thinking about adding another 1 hour session in for yet BEST RESULTS. (OR SHOULD I JUST UP THE INTENSITY OF THE 1 HOUR SESSION?) I have not lost any muscle with the cardio thanks to the diet & drugs-in fact I am in better shape than ever.
So John, what is the max amount of cardio one should do when trying to get SUPER CUT?
How much do the Pro’s do? I here 1.5-3 hours a day sometimes thanks to all the anti-catabolics.
What amount is going to PASS the point of diminishing returns?
(FYI my cardio is walking on the treadmill on a 6-8 incline at 4-4.5 mph nothing too catabolic)

jw - i have always been a fan of cardio and like you am glad to see an authority such as JMB behind the cause. it is unfortunate that cardio gets so much negative press. :o( anyways, i am FAR from being competetive and i don’t take anything other than the standard fat burning supps (md6, t2 etc.), so i can’t speak to what effect your current regimen has on cardio. but as far as upping the intensity vs. longer duration…longer duration wins out every time. you would be much better off in terms of fat burning and muscle sparing by sitting through longer cardio sessions rather than increasing the intensity. if you work more intensly for the same period of time you will burn more total calories, but will burn more glycogen and could very well cross your lactic acid threshold and hinder your fat burning capacity. plus there is sort of a threshold for physical exhaustion as well that when crossed will leave you totally wiped out at the end of your session and might only net you an extra 50 calories burned. such a small difference just isn’t worth it. it’s best to work at a pace that leaves you feeling slightly winded and not totally spent. one that will allow you to extend your cardio sessions almost indefinitely. when leaning i will sit through 2 hours of cardio per day 7 days per week (two 1 hour sessions) without noticing any negative effects in terms of muscle catabolism or strength loss (and i never go above 10-12% bodyfat before i lean back down to 6% or so). so even at extremely low % it is possible to burn fat with cardio while losing little to no strength. although, the lower the bf% the finer the line you have to walk with your nutrition. especially post workout. i am generally not a big fan of caloric restriction for leaning, so i usually eat maintenance + the amount of glycogen used during my cardio. this keeps my glycogen tanks full so i prevent muscle catabolism without any fat storage. essentially my energy balance is break-even except for the fat that is burnt off during my cardio sessions. and since i do a shitload of cardio the fat just flies off (even when in single digits). some t-citizens would say i am crazy, but this seems to work for me. i imagine it would work for you too. best of luck. kevo

In the past I have done cardio up to 3 times per day for 45 min. when getting ready for a show. This got me super shredded.
I was at the point were I didn’t want to lower caloreis anymore…

I’ve just got a a few cardio questions for you guys. I’m in the process of trying to drop some nasty amounts of FAT. 4-4.5 MPH seems kinda high to me, I usually do 3.5-4 for about an 1 hour 3-4 times a week. Should I up the sessions and do 45-1 hour more times a week??? I was thinking of going 45 minutes early in the morning, go to work, then come back to the gym do my thing and finish off with another 45 minutes at 3.5-4 MPH how does this sound to you guys??? If I go in the morning too that would pretty much double the amount of cardio is this good or bad??? JMB - Do I inhale my SURGE after my cardio in the morning? In the late afternoon after my workout do I take a SURGE before I do my final 45 minutes of cardio or after. I’m really trying to “lean up”. At my current cardio sessions, by the time I’m done it looks like I took my 1.5 litre Evian and poured it on myself - instead of drinking it.
KEVO, how is the MD6/T2 stack working for you??? I got both but I haven’t cracked open my T2 yet, no one has posted any results yet.

You do not need the Surge after your first cardio session (taking it 2 times daily would just get very expensive!)
As far as the workout cadio question this has been addressed before: Train & Do cardio first-THEN take SURGE after the ENTIRE workout is done.
Also I started at 3.5mph but as I got into better and better shape I have been able to move up to 4-4.5 with the same heartrate-so I am not really pushing harder I am just in better physical condition.
I took the netire day off today so i may bump up to 2X at 45min-1hour tomarrow…

Come on guys - are you for real! Walking ISN’T exercise! Didn’t you read Chris Shugart’s guest atomic dog column from a few weeks ago! Try some cycle ergometer, skipping or non-weighted/weighted GPP, but please - walking - I thought this website was TESTOSTERONE! Dangerously Hardcore, walking, please…

JW…I don’t have any articles or gurus to quote but, speaking only from personal experience I lean up much better with a good sprint routine no longer than 45 minutes…30 is probably enough with a two mintutes in between 100 meters and only one minute if you are doing 40’s. You will feel that same quick twitch pump from sprints that you get from lifting.

Walking is exercise. There’s lot’s if different ways to walk and every word ever uttered (or written) by a T-Mag contributor is not necessarily gospel. Try walking at 4.2-4.4 moving the angle up from 5.5 to ~ 13 over the course of about 35 minutes or more (moving .5 every two minutes) or even better (or worse) work it up to around 12 in the first 7 minutes and then just keep it there and see how long you can last going 4.2 @ a 12 degree incline. This is especially fun the day after a leg workout. I did this the day after I supersetted squats and stiff leg deadlifts (315x6x3 for both) and only made it about 20 minutes @ the 12 incline.

Nothing personal Jonathon Mills but most of us are pretty experienced here. (IE: I am 233lbs at 10%bf down from 270lbs with NO muscle loss)
Frankly almost every Pro Bodybuilder walks at a fast pace on the treadmill for cardio. It is not “exercise” it is duration cardio to burn off extra calories and or fat.
Walk 4.5mph at a 10 Incline for an hour AFTER you train then talk. (4.5 mph is almost a light jog.)
Walking is hard enough to meet traget heart range for fat loss & easy enough (ie: won’t produce catabolic hormones like running) to SPARE muscle.

D-End I have done sprints in the past but I feel the duration stuff is better for fat loss and keeping LBM. (Thats why most competitors use it.)
Check out the thread: Duration VS Intensity I think John M prooved that point already.

BeaR - i gave t2 a shot a while back with mixed results. while on t2 my approach was not that scientific. i didn’t take the morning temperature readings to see if my core temp had been raised by the t2 or not. my bad. i didn’t really feel anything like others had mentioned (warm, flush, shaky, etc.) most of the effects of the t2 supplementation people had reported sounded more like thermogenic type of effects to me, so those were the signs i was looking for. didn’t notice any of those things. and even if the effects of t2 were more subtle on me i didn’t really see much of a difference in the mirror beyond what the cardio was already doing (even after two cycles). md6 was another story though…that stuff is amazing. i have used other thermogenics before with mixed results, but md6 was different. maybe it is their formula? i dunno. at any rate i have never truly stacked the two to see what would happen. my results with md6 have been so fantastic that i haven’t felt the need to try it. maybe next time around.

as far as your cardio i would say to give your 2-a-day proposal a shot and only take your surge after your weight/cardio combo session. when leaning (on non-weight training days) i do 1 hour in the a.m. on an empty stomach w/3 - md6 and follow it up with a breakfast of potato and eggs. great for glycogen replenishment. my next two meals are high carbs moderate proteins low fat to keep the engine running. my afternoon snack prior to my second cardio session is high protein low fat no carbs to suppress insulin, aid in glucagon release and increase fat burning. after my second 1 hour workout w/3 - md6 i eat another high carb moderate protein low fat meal. the last couple of meals are high protein low fat no carb. sort of a massive eating kind of thing. on weight training days i train first (1 hour), cardio second (1 hour) followed up with surge and then follow the same routine i mentioned earlier for the rest of the day. i forgot to mention that my cardio of choice is the stationary bike running at 20mph with a resistance that will put my heart rate between 170-175 bpm. because i am on thermogenics this number is a bit inflated (145-150 bpm non-termogenics or 75-80% mhr), but is quite an easy pace for me. hope this helps. kevo

KEVO - fuck dude, you must be a TANK running on some airplane fuel!!! I’m pretty big and my main concern is really shedding fat, like an ugly girl you wake up with after a hard night of partying - DOESN’T MATTER HOW YOU GET RID OF IT, JUST DO IT!!! I mainly slashed my carb intake, trying to keep it under 100 g/day. Fat are slowly entering my meals. Udo’s with my protein, I even got some CLA. MD6 is good at killing my hunger, I’ll add in the T2 in the morning. At a 2x/day routine how much fat could I expect to lose in a given amount of time??? You sound like fat can’t stay on your body… good genetics or plain HARD work. I’ve got a Big frame 5’8-9 225lbs. the muscle is there and isn’t going anywhere. My BF I’ve never measured. Pretty much I build muscle easy and have trouble shedding fat - any other tips???


JW- I see you working…I am just wondering, are you planning on maintaining that body weight once you burn it off or what? Are we getting into “bulking time” now? Do you simply adjust the new calorie intake to fit the new body or is it a bit more tricky than that? Will you be trying to get even bigger or will you be doing some perfecting? Are you sticking with test all the way? It seems like you are so YOKED that if you took a good dose of winny for two weeks it would be…GAME SET MATCH, Hello veins in the abs…YEAH. I think we have very different body types seeing that I am 6’7" and I think you said you were 5’10", but I am learning a lot, sorry to bombard you with the Q’s but I am so curious. I am not planning on “bulking” then “cutting” at all on my way to 275 from 240 but that is because I need to sprint and shuffle and back peddle and all that shit if I am going to be a good D-END. I am counting on being able to stay lean and get there none the less. Late.

Bear – From what you describe we seem to be genetic opposites in terms of muscle gain/fat loss. I am not a big guy at all. I am 6’-0” and currently 185lbs @ 9%. The leanest I have ever gotten has been around 4%. I weighed in at 162lbs at the time. Not a pretty sight. :o( But that was a year and a half ago. Now at the same 4% I should weigh in at 175lbs. and look a bit better than last time. My body doesn’t like to stay that lean though and I become a real ass when I push to that point (just ask the wife!). I am pretty happy around 6% and is ultimately where I want to get this time around. I really don’t know exactly where I fall genetically in terms of muscular capacity because I have never really eaten big and lifted big at the same time. So I really don’t know how much I can grow when doing it “right”. I have been walking the fine line of minimal to no fat gain while trying to gain muscle. It’s been slow going, kinda like watching paint dry. :o) But I am happier this way. I am partial to the longer leaner look anyway, but with the right curves in the right places if you can imagine that.

I am able to burn fat at will as long as I do the calculations and the cardio. That prolly explains why I don’t mind cardio and do so much of it. It’s a point where I can exact a lot of control over my physique goals. I follow a 55%carb, 35%protein, 10%fat diet and have ever since I started. With fat this low EFA supplementation is a must of course. I was pleasantly surprised when I saw that JMB recommended similar ratios. I rarely ever deviate from this regardless of what my objectives are. I just play with the nutrient loading similar to the massive eating plan.

It’s hard to say what fat you could expect to lose with 2 sessions per day. It all depends on your energy balance at the end of the day. Read John Berardi’s Massive Eating article (issue 146) to get the scoop on calculating your energy needs if you haven’t already. You will prolly want to start taking your bf% regularly so you know where you stand and so you can tweak your game plan as you go. Otherwise you will be in the dark. Remember that 1 lb of fat is 3500 cals so a negative energy balance of 500 per day will yield you 1 lb of fat per week. Formulate a game plan that will allow you to reach your fat loss goals while minimizing any negative effects and adjust as you go. It’s an interesting process to be sure. I spent the first year playing with my diet and exploring my boundaries, but it was well worth it and made all the difference. Good luck. Kevo

JW - no offense taken. Don’t try to say you are experienced though just because you are big and ripped. I’m sure 2.5 grammes of gear per week will have contributed slightly :slight_smile: I can also see how the walking routine you describe would be difficult - but I would rather do something else difficult than do what all the old fat women do at my gym and walk on the treadmill. And I don’t see why you think it is less catabolic than running if you are exercising at the same intensity (sprints not included). ALL aerobic exercise is catabolic if volume and intensity become excessive, but if you are experienced and can do it without losing muscle (and taking 2.5 grammes of gear per week), you can probably nail the cardio as much as you want and not lose much muscle. Why don’t you try taking 200mcg of T3 per week? Most of the pro’s do. Jonathan

Well Jonathon I have consulted with B Roberts about the T3 & he seems to think that going over 50mcg daily will NOT produce better results-period. (only more side effects)
I did once go up that high though-I felt like shit, lost strength, & couldn’t fall asleep to save my life.
My point was running can easily end up making you (or at least me) raise the heartrate too much out of the fat burining zone.
I don’t care how much gear one uses as that is not a mesure of expereinced. (remember I am only this high because after years of work I platued at 500mg, 1000mg, etc.)-I say I am expereinced because I have been training seriuosly for over 5 years. I have consulted with Bill Roberts, Dan Duchaine, Crazy Paul Borreson, amongst others.
To give you an idea how deep I am into the iron game: When I was in highshcool I was actually getting my supps for free from Bill Phillips (before he sold out) and Shawn Phillips was desiging my training programs at no cost. I would literally send Bill gear labels and say: Is this fake Bill? He would send me his thoughts via phone or letter. (The bigger they got the less contact & free goodies I got.) Then they became fuckn Muscle Media-oh well.
So I have been at this for a while & I have seeked knowledge from the very best.
It has lead me to be able to say I actually make a living thanks to my physique. (Hell no! I am not a Pro Bodybuilder or anything like that!)

What do you do for a living JW?

sports entertainment my friend.
I won’t go into details there are past threads-plus it could be bad PR considering things I have posted.

Hey John,
We would still like you to check out the original question-thanks!