Hero...Or Zero?

Do the English count? Like they never detained anyone as suspected IRA members over the years. . .

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Do the English count? Like they never detained anyone as suspected IRA members over the years. . .[/quote]

Oh sure, but those were their citizens, different issue altogether. Not saying its right, it’s just more equivalent to, say, locking your own citizen on a military brig with no charges for three and a half years.

[quote]orion wrote:
That is no excuse, Top Gun is gay drama.

A riveting tale of a young pilot, struggling with his sexuality.

Brokeback Mountain with wings.
[/quote]

Now that you put it that way…i am seeing brokeback as a common theme in a lot of hollywood mainstream.

Love stories suck too.

[quote]flyboy51v wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
flyboy51v wrote:
mharmar wrote:
Actually according to Bush and Cheney, McCain wasn’t even tortured he was simply interrogated effectively.

I just went back and checked the details on McCain’s captivity …

  • first they used a rifle butt to break his shoulder.
  • then they bayonetted him.
  • then they interrogated him for days without treating the above injuries nor the two fractured legs and the fractured arm.
  • once they DID give him “care” he lost 50 pounds and his hair turned white.
  • then they put him in solitary confinement for 2 years.
  • then they started tying him to the ceiling and beating him every two hours trying to get a confession. This left him unable to lift his arms above his head for the rest of his life.

I had no idea that Bush and Cheney were stabbing, breaking bones, tying guys to the ceiling and beating them every two hours???

Huh …

Read up on a couple of the deaths at Bagram. Not to mention Abu Ghraib. Not saying Bush ordered the military, CIA and contractors to beat people to death. But when you toss out the Geneva Conventions, have Justice write memos justifying torture, and foster a climate of “enhanced interrogations”, what do you think is going to happen?

GDollars … I hate to hijack this into Geneva. But we didn’t throw out Geneva. Geneva doesn’t apply to terrorists. In fact it was specifically written to EXCLUDE terrorists so that countries wouldn’t employ terrorists tactics.

If you think we should treat terrorist better … fine … that’s a legit opinion just one I happen to disagree with. But please stop with this “throw Geneva out” angle.

Does it ever occur to you btw that you are much more incensed about US waterboarding and keeping people up at night with loud music than you are with Mugabe murdering millions … or the Russians looting in Georgia … or Saddam’s sons REALLY torturing their national soccer players for not winning … putting human beings through paper shredders, invading Kuwait and raping their women on the way in and the way out … lighting their oil wells on fire, dumping bio weapons on the kurds and on and on …

Doesn’t that strike you as just a little pathological ???[/quote]

No, it strikes me as retarded to argue that because one is incensed about U.S. torture and human rights violations one is ignoring the far worse crimes of other countries. It’s a pretty common argument on the internet though.

  1. I am an American citizen. I care more about what my country does and how it treats people than I do about what other countries do. I think that’s pretty natural. I also like to think my country is a moral nation, or at least would like to be one.

  2. Everyone who is literate, and probably even most who aren’t, knows that Saddam Hussein was a butcher. Likewise Mugabe. And Burma’s generals. And the janjaweed. And Radovan Karadzic. And millions of others. It’s common knowledge. Even the most uneducated Michael Moore devotee knows these things. What is the point of belaboring them?

On the other hand, many people refuse to admit the U.S.'s (obviously far lesser) crimes. Or they are prepared to accept them because they are scared.

That’s why it’s worth talking about, because it’s our country, and there is a legitimate debate about what we are doing, even if most people are apathetic and uninformed.

If we learned warfare from the French, like it says in some thread around here somewhere, I hope we skipped the class on how to deal with insurgencies and terrorists. Like the way they handled everyone from the North Africans, to the Vietnamese and everyone else in Indochina. Lol.

Do these people count? I bet they detained tons of Algerians, and Moroccans. Tortured them even. . .

Amnesia, anyone?

-edit, Hey I am not arguing right or wrong here. But when someone says The Europeans do not torture or detain people I feel they need to be called out on it.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
-edit, Hey I am not arguing right or wrong here. But when someone says The Europeans do not torture or detain people I feel they need to be called out on it.[/quote]

Well technically the Europeans don’t torture people. Maybe certain individual Europeans might.

Collective action is pointless to argue about.

Your arguement is pointless.

[quote]boatguy wrote:

In case you weren’t paying attention, we are one of very few nations which still honors the Geneva convention. [/quote]
In case you weren’t paying attention, the US is not honoring the Geneva convention. You don’t have to take my word for it. That’s what the international Red Cross said.

That’s funny.

But you were ready for Bush right?

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
boatguy wrote:

In case you weren’t paying attention, we are one of very few nations which still honors the Geneva convention.
In case you weren’t paying attention, the US is not honoring the Geneva convention. You don’t have to take my word for it. That’s what the international Red Cross said.
[/quote]

Wrong. Our enemies are not signatories. The Geneva Convention is a 2 way treaty and doesn’t apply.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
boatguy wrote:

In case you weren’t paying attention, we are one of very few nations which still honors the Geneva convention.
In case you weren’t paying attention, the US is not honoring the Geneva convention. You don’t have to take my word for it. That’s what the international Red Cross said.

Wrong. Our enemies are not signatories. The Geneva Convention is a 2 way treaty and doesn’t apply.[/quote]

And if you repeat that often enough…

… it is still wrong.

[quote]orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
boatguy wrote:

In case you weren’t paying attention, we are one of very few nations which still honors the Geneva convention.
In case you weren’t paying attention, the US is not honoring the Geneva convention. You don’t have to take my word for it. That’s what the international Red Cross said.

Wrong. Our enemies are not signatories. The Geneva Convention is a 2 way treaty and doesn’t apply.

And if you repeat that often enough…

… it is still wrong.
[/quote]

Don’t sign the treaty and you are not entitled to its protections.

[quote]orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
boatguy wrote:

In case you weren’t paying attention, we are one of very few nations which still honors the Geneva convention.

In case you weren’t paying attention, the US is not honoring the Geneva convention. You don’t have to take my word for it. That’s what the international Red Cross said.

Wrong. Our enemies are not signatories. The Geneva Convention is a 2 way treaty and doesn’t apply.

And if you repeat that often enough…

… it is still wrong.
[/quote]

I think you just lost the argument?

If not … I’m going to respond to all your future arguments with " … I don’t care what you say … it’s still wrong."

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
boatguy wrote:

In case you weren’t paying attention, we are one of very few nations which still honors the Geneva convention.

In case you weren’t paying attention, the US is not honoring the Geneva convention. You don’t have to take my word for it. That’s what the international Red Cross said.

Wrong. Our enemies are not signatories. The Geneva Convention is a 2 way treaty and doesn’t apply.[/quote]

Bam. Ding ding ding. Score one for Zap.

[quote]flyboy51v wrote:

I think you just lost the argument?

If not … I’m going to respond to all your future arguments with " … I don’t care what you say … it’s still wrong."

[/quote]

I think you just summed up most of his arguments that I have read. :smiley: