T Nation

Hepatotoxicity of SERMs


#1

I have heard various opinions on the liver toxicity of SERMs. Do any of you have experience or opinions on the matter.

Along with the general hepatic effects, how do you think it reacts with alcohol in the liver. Is a SERM (at normal PCT doses) + alcohol as bad as methylated AAS + alcohol? Obviously this will be dose dependent, as is the definition of toxicity, but how do you think the doses relate to each other?

Interested in your opinions,
GF


#2

What is the basis of these opinions?


#3

Well, there are various medical websites that indicate possible liver toxicity, but on the other hand other boards have members that say the toxicity is unlikely because of the short duration of use during PCT.


#4

There is no real cause for concern. Tamoxifen is prescribed by physicians even as a prophylactic (preventative agent, or more precisely an agent to reduce risk) without them fearing liver problems, when there is no liver problem in the first place (it can be different if there is.) Clomiphene isn't ordinarily used long-term for women, not for reasons of fear of hepatoxicity but because the ordinary use is one to a few treatments for fertility. It has been studied for ongoing use in men for a period of one year with no liver problems.

Bodybuilders don't report liver problems from it.

In women the combination of clomiphene (which can act as an estrogen) with HCG (which increases estrogen for them) has either rarely caused hepatic hemangiomas or has worsened existing ones. Not sure which. These are known to be caused and aggravated by estrogen.

The term "hepatoxicity" does not refer to likelihood of causing liver problems, but whether it ever happens at all.

In practice, bb'ing use shows no reason for concern. Clomiphene and tamoxifen have been safely used for a long time by very many.


#5

(Can't just add to previous post as it hasn't appeared yet)

As an example of how the term is not necessarily to be feared as much as one might assume at first blush, acetaminophen (Tylenol) is classed as being hepatotoxic.

However if used according to label directions there is nothing to fear.

There is nothing to fear with standard bb'ing use of tamoxifen or Clomid with regard to the liver, either.


#6

someone told me recently that in regards to hepatoxicity :

an anadrol 50 tab is roughly equally toxic as a shot of vodka

would there be any truth in a statement like that ?


#7

Iron, whoever told you that is an idiot. Some people want so badly to sound as if they know what they are talking about, that they will say anything. Also, many will just parrot what they have heard from those who they consider "vets".


#8

Thanks Bill, that was a great response.

Also, is there any rule of thumb on how long it would take ones liver to regain its completely normal function after use of methylated AAS. Say after 2, 3, or 4 weeks. Say, at average doses.


#9

I really think that would be very dependent on many other factors. Alcohol, painkiller use, previous drug and booze use, age, sex.. the lot.


#10

I don't have research to back it up but I believe that being off for as long as on is entirely sufficient, at least provided that the on time was not excessive, and none of those durations you mentioned are. I've certainly encountered no evidence to the contrary and there has been much success with this principle.


#11

Brook, I have a feeling that that is going to be the best answer we get. But a general range would serve as useful to a lot of people I feel. For example a range of 2 days to 2 weeks, as opposed to a range of 4 weeks to 8 weeks.

Bill, I was more interested as to how long after cessation of methylated AAS use will the liver be back to full function, or say functional enough to not have to watch other drug intake (such as NSAIDs and alcohol). Maybe you were responding to this, and were saying it is the same amount of time that one is on those methylated AAS?


#12

Yes, that was it. Actually I expect that if for example using alkylated orals for 6 weeks, the liver is fully recovered well before 6 weeks of no such usage as it is a very fast regenerating organ, but it's a conservative principle.

It also is established that 2 weeks off time is sufficient after 2 weeks of usage of alkylateds.