Help with 'Lagging Lats'


I was out last night and overheard someone say (have heard this in the past when I worked out hard 2007 - 2008) ‘that guy looks good but has no lats.’ Or soemthing like that.

Not that I look BIG, but I was wering a sleeveless t (wife better) shorts and am a fairly handsome chappy luckilly, and have a decent ‘slim but athletic’ look in shorts and tshirt or naked.

Truth is I DO have lats and my back grows in thickness but gettting that v sweep from waist to shoulder is damned hard for me a natural ectomorph.

I started working out a month ago. I will post a before and after pic. First was July 6th, 2nd where you can see gains in the arms and deltoids and some in the chest.

As you can see, I’m making gains. Not bad at all for 17 days Now I know I’m still a skinny B compared to most of you guys, but I AM working and eating and resting hard.

It annoys me that my damned calves seem to grow just by looking at the calf press. They do what b’building is supposed to do - work them out, eat well - they visibly grow. Shoulders too and arms. And thighs.

You can see I have decent traps too from the back shot I’ll post next, I have a good visible kite shape and some lat thickness for a restarting beginner less than a month in. Even have some rear delts which is rare for beginners. AGAIN - I’M NOT SAYING IT’S GREAT AND I’VE ONLY BEEN WORKING OUT FOR A FEW WEEKS.

But same happened in past. Worked out heavy and ate well etc for 6 months and got in great shape - all bar the damned lat flare.

I’m doin my deads, wide grip pull downs and rows hard, with intensity and good from but the lat width alludes me.

I’m tempted, out of being pissed off to selectively overtrain them by doing chins at the local park on off days. I once read that Arnold used to be embarrased about his disproportionally slim claves and secretly trained them every day to ge tthem to catch up. In the past being narrow shouldered, I have done this with my side delts which were lagging and it worked - they got bigger from selectively doing side delt iso work 2 x a week (this was back in 08.)

Name me some exercises to try and super stress or isolate that part of the pat that gives the width, name me a rep range that is best for lats, advise me if i should maybe experiement with differing grips on pull downs, or do something nuts like 6 x 8 for them instead f 4 x 8 like I do for other compounds.

Damned lats.

Edit - just gonna do a training log instead.

17 days before above pic.

Not saying great gains but not bad results for 17 days, you can see the diff in shoulders, arms and a bit in chest in the pic above this post.

When I’m stood up you can see my abs are longer and leaner than they were in the first pic too.

Again - nothing great going on here and zero to brag about so please don’t take the piss.

I know you will say’ you’ve been training 17 days - it could take 6 months or more to see massive or even moderate improvements!

But I have worked out in the past for that much time or longer and grown well - all but that damned allusive lat flare, the v shape from waist to shoulders, even though I was doing good cardio and core work, so didn’t have a flabby waist.


Rear view. - You have to click on it to make it larger. I’m no pc whizz so don;t know how to re-size pics and just have a crappy laptop camera, my only camera.

Like I said rear delts not bad for a month or less in and traps seem to grow well and mates in past when I’ve been training longer and was bigger have said ‘you get good traps, but where are the lats?’ kinda mockingly but it’s true.

I have the idea in my head to do chins at the park EVERY DAY for a month. I can do them there as they have a normal chin bar - the one at the gym is weird, it’s like 4 x thicker than a normal chin bar and that makes it too hard for me to do more than a couple.

Like I said, please no mickey taking. Just trust me, if the rear view was full bod, i have good legs (wmen always comment me on them as well as massuers - from past biking and sprinting and maybe my hapkido) and look in slim but atheletic shape.

Was talking to an MMA fighter friend about this as he has good lats sweep and he offered me something called dianabol. I flatly turned that down and will not be doing anything like that ever (I hold no distain for those that do, it’s your choice.)

Man I know I have a shit ton of mickey taking coming my way for these pics, but I just want to know how to get wide lats.

I have read that bb’ers and fitness models train for symetry so will isolate and overtrain a lagging body part. I have no idea how to do that though and my best idea is doing two more work sets for my pull downs or just doing chins every day or every other day for a month to try and wake the buggers up. Like I said i used ot have bugger all side delts and twice weekly 3 x 10 side lateral raises on top of my training did make a good difference.

Maybe as I do rows one session and pull downs the next - maybe drop the rows and just do pull downs bvoth sessions? Or drop the pull downs and go to the park before or after training and do chins instead? Park only a 5 min run from the gym…

I don’t need lecturing on form, I am very well aware of how to retract and squeeze the scapular on the concentric and get a good tension and stretch on the negative etc.

Ah well, I’ve said too much already I’m off to watch sons of anarchy.

Hope this helps.

Hey thanks for that wheelman!

I do a two day full body A / B workout with rows on one day and pull downs on the other so no way i could incorporate all those exercised without overtraining.

Will change my rows to dumbell rows perhaps and go underhand grip for the pull downs as the author suggests, or maybe 3 x 8 underhand and 3 x 8 overhand.

I could take the back work out of my full body - the pull downs and the rows and do a lat only day for a month too, going from training mon and thurs to mon wed fri.

Would give me more in the tank for my other exercises on the full body days.

How does that sound guys - doing my full body mon and fri and doing a LAT DAY on wednesday?

Not sure if it sounds good or crazy and the problem is I kinda like things a bit crazy…

No worries bro. Here’s another one I found helpful.

You need to stop worrying about individual body parts right now. Focus on getting big all over. Look into mountaindog training for back, there’s an article on T-Nation written by John Meadows. Train, eat and sleep well for a year then come back and post your progress pictures.

[quote]The Rattler wrote:
You need to stop worrying about individual body parts right now. Focus on getting big all over. Look into mountaindog training for back, there’s an article on T-Nation written by John Meadows. Train, eat and sleep well for a year then come back and post your progress pictures. [/quote]

x2. Stop worrying about everything, OP. Just stick consistently to a well balanced program, and the gains will come in time.

You don’t look out of balance to me. You’re just small all over. Keep lifting and don’t worry about it.

Thanks once more wheelman13.

I like the sound of doing both pronated and suppinated pull downs.

Also from your latter link, the deadstop dumbell rows and one arm barbell rows.

It’s time for my back to be getting hit from new angles!

I will try these out!

@The Rattler - have done that before (not a full year but almost) and the lat widht still problemo. People do incorporate extra / overtraining / special days for certain body parts for symetry or change in body shape composition you know. You don’t have to just get big first. Lean gains through intense workouts, lots of rest good diet and cardio is my way of training; at no point am I just going to aim to be a bigger version of how I already am or ever get higher body fat percentage. I’m all for the slow but lean gain approach rather than just get big (and possibly fatter if on bulking diet) and then cut and specialise after approach. Each to their own, but keeping lean is so imortant to me I’d take 50% less hypertrophy gains and keep the same or lower bodyfat percentage over dbl gains but not shaping or risking getting podgy.

For me I bodybuild primarilly for aesthetics - not size. I also love the health benefits that come along with it. So it’s putting on mass but in the right areas whilst maybe working some weak points harder and working decent points with intensity but just regularly. Like my calves grow no matter what i do to them for iso so I just only ever do seated calf raise. No need to do anything else with them.

All the celebs do this in fact. Bradd Pitt could have had lats in fight Club but wanted to quickly build a lean ripped look for the shoot and didn’t have a lot of time so did only chest, arm, abb, and shoulder work. Later on for "Alexander’ he needed a ‘full everywhere’ physique and bulked up all over.

I went from looking like I had zero side delts to having them by specially training them twice a week really hardcore on top of my normal routine, so I’m thinking either going a bit extra for back for a month or two and then back to normal routine and / or incorporating mixing up grip for pull downs and trying these new rows is going to help me. I’ve always felt bent over barbell rows hit my upper rear shoulders and traps etc more than my lats, no matter how I vary the row.

I wont be silly and do a lat only day but I will go from 4 x 8 on pulldowns to 6 x 8-10, 3 sets pronated, 3 suppinated. So an extra two sets per week. And I will ditch the bent over rows for dumbell rows and really concetrate on squeezing the lower scapula and ‘putting it in my back pocket’ as the guy from mrwheels13’s first link said.

A trainer at the gym also said ‘just hang on the chin up bar for as long as you can.’ I guess this acts like one massive negative and causes tissue breakdown that way, might be a good ‘finisher off’ technique - like some people who do spilt routines and do a set of push ups to failiure after upper body day.

Anyway thanks Mrwheels, you’ve helped me think about lookng at hitting the back from new perpectives. I always thought palms facing chins or pulldowns couldn’t be that bad just coz the biceps help. I mean I can do 4 x 8 at around 65 kilos palms facing pull downs but that can’t be a lot of bicep help as I damned well cannot barbell curl 65 kilos 1 x 8 let alone 4 x 8!

[quote]Chris87 wrote:
You don’t look out of balance to me. You’re just small all over. Keep lifting and don’t worry about it.[/quote]

Ha ha, there’s truth there too, but I do have narrow lats, it’s my build.

Look even this pro body builder who was certainly not small all over had the same problem.

Read it and you’ll see he was competing but still couldn’t get good lats until he then specialised and went on to get them.

Anyway I now have some ideas for new lat exercises for the future, so that’s no bad thing.

[quote]leon36 wrote:

[quote]Chris87 wrote:
You don’t look out of balance to me. You’re just small all over. Keep lifting and don’t worry about it.[/quote]

Ha ha, there’s truth there too, but I do have narrow lats, it’s my build.

Look even this pro body builder who was certainly not small all over had the same problem.

Read it and you’ll see he was competing but still couldn’t get good lats until he then specialised and went on to get them.

Anyway I now have some ideas for new lat exercises for the future, so that’s no bad thing. [/quote]

He’s an advanced bodybuilder who has been training for decades. You’re a beginner.

Maybe post some better pictures from the front. The back pic very much shows you are undeveloped there. The two front pics you posted are unflattering first off with crappy lighting, but show that, while you’re back is not developed, it IS on par with your chest, delts, etc. Take some better pictures if you think you are really in need of specialization.

It’s no biggie, I just want to train my lats in new ways. I know I have just started and have a long way to go. But I’m on the road and working out my way to do it is all. My arms, chest and shoulders will grow, it’s happened before. Legs too. Abs. Upper back, traps. Am working them with the tried and true compound lifts with the rigth set and rep cokmbo for my goals and will continue working hard on all those.

For fun and a kinda project I’m going to change up the way I hit my lats and see how that goes. Nothing major, two extra sets on pulldowns per week with two different grips. A new dumbell row instead of the bent over barbell rows. Nothing major, eating well, trying to rest well and training hard and trying to lift heavier wieghts each week as we all do.

You posted in one of your other threads that you cant do a pull up. That would be why your lats/back generally are not good.

I cannot do a pull up at my gym is what i said. I said I CAN currently do sets of 8,6,5,4,3 or something like that followed by palms facing a few sets of 5 at the pull up bars at the park. However the pull up bars at the gym are for some reason really thick, I mean you can just get your hand around it, the thickness of the part of an olly bar you put the plates on. This makes them really hard to do.

Selective quoting man, why do you do that?

This site is worse than Sherdog for trolls and haters. it’s like everyone is 17 years old or something.

[quote]H1989S wrote:
You posted in one of your other threads that you cant do a pull up. That would be why your lats/back generally are not good. [/quote]

If you can’t do a pullup, there’s a decent “pullup progression” routine in the book Convict Conditioning. OP, since you like to read and learn about a number of options for doing things, you might want to take a look at that book. You start with simpler variations of an exercise and work up to more complex variations (like one arm pullups). It’s all bodyweight training, but obviously you can add weights if you want and mess with the set-rep schemes, etc.

As far as other advice on working lats and teres major, Vince Gironda had his own selection of preferred exercises. Low pulley rows, and a 45 degree pulley row, mainly. You can google for those; there’s a writeup called “The Vince Gironda Workout Bulletin” that discusses the details in terms of execution.

However, I’m not speaking from personal experience here. These are just some options I’ve seen that you may find helpful.

[quote]leon36 wrote:
Selective quoting man, why do you do that?

This site is worse than Sherdog for trolls and haters. it’s like everyone is 17 years old or something.[/quote]

Selective quoting… mostly because you write so much. If you won’t condense your thoughts down to a few sentences or small paragraphs, to show respect for your readers, you can’t realistically expect everyone’s going to read everything you wrote.

As far as the trolls and haters part is concerned, it’s because you do a few things that are frowned upon around here. 1) you spend too much time overanalyzing and not enough time actually under the bar. It’s one thing to have a long post once every 3+ weeks, especially after you’ve tried things out, but you do that every couple days. 2) you reject the advice that’s given to you… you don’t just question it and want to understand the reasons why everyone’s saying “do 5x5”, instead you just flat out say “I’m not going to do it”.

It comes across as childish and disrespectful to the people who give you advice. 3) you’re handing out advice to newbies that’s “questionable” at best. It’s one thing to say “train, increase progression, rest, get enough protein”. It’s another to say “do this, don’t do that” when you’re not qualified to say that.

Basically, you’re rubbing people the wrong way. So nobody’s really taking you seriously anymore.

Obviously you’re coming from a unique position here… but that’s just like everyone else. Personally, I have the same need to overanalyze things too; however there’s a lot of value to just finding some program, any program, and sticking to it for a month or three. After that, you can go back to overanalyzing, and looking at what worked FOR YOU, and what didn’t.

But nobody here wants you to fail.

[quote]leon36 wrote:
Thanks once more wheelman13.

I like the sound of doing both pronated and suppinated pull downs.

Also from your latter link, the deadstop dumbell rows and one arm barbell rows.

It’s time for my back to be getting hit from new angles!

I will try these out!

@The Rattler - have done that before (not a full year but almost) and the lat widht still problemo. People do incorporate extra / overtraining / special days for certain body parts for symetry or change in body shape composition you know. You don’t have to just get big first. Lean gains through intense workouts, lots of rest good diet and cardio is my way of training; at no point am I just going to aim to be a bigger version of how I already am or ever get higher body fat percentage. I’m all for the slow but lean gain approach rather than just get big (and possibly fatter if on bulking diet) and then cut and specialise after approach. Each to their own, but keeping lean is so imortant to me I’d take 50% less hypertrophy gains and keep the same or lower bodyfat percentage over dbl gains but not shaping or risking getting podgy.

For me I bodybuild primarilly for aesthetics - not size. I also love the health benefits that come along with it. So it’s putting on mass but in the right areas whilst maybe working some weak points harder and working decent points with intensity but just regularly. Like my calves grow no matter what i do to them for iso so I just only ever do seated calf raise. No need to do anything else with them.

All the celebs do this in fact. Bradd Pitt could have had lats in fight Club but wanted to quickly build a lean ripped look for the shoot and didn’t have a lot of time so did only chest, arm, abb, and shoulder work. Later on for "Alexander’ he needed a ‘full everywhere’ physique and bulked up all over.

I went from looking like I had zero side delts to having them by specially training them twice a week really hardcore on top of my normal routine, so I’m thinking either going a bit extra for back for a month or two and then back to normal routine and / or incorporating mixing up grip for pull downs and trying these new rows is going to help me. I’ve always felt bent over barbell rows hit my upper rear shoulders and traps etc more than my lats, no matter how I vary the row.

I wont be silly and do a lat only day but I will go from 4 x 8 on pulldowns to 6 x 8-10, 3 sets pronated, 3 suppinated. So an extra two sets per week. And I will ditch the bent over rows for dumbell rows and really concetrate on squeezing the lower scapula and ‘putting it in my back pocket’ as the guy from mrwheels13’s first link said.

A trainer at the gym also said ‘just hang on the chin up bar for as long as you can.’ I guess this acts like one massive negative and causes tissue breakdown that way, might be a good ‘finisher off’ technique - like some people who do spilt routines and do a set of push ups to failiure after upper body day.

Anyway thanks Mrwheels, you’ve helped me think about lookng at hitting the back from new perpectives. I always thought palms facing chins or pulldowns couldn’t be that bad just coz the biceps help. I mean I can do 4 x 8 at around 65 kilos palms facing pull downs but that can’t be a lot of bicep help as I damned well cannot barbell curl 65 kilos 1 x 8 let alone 4 x 8![/quote]

Okay that’s a lot to read so I just read the first bit which was addressed to me. I’m not saying get fat or put loads of fat on to get gains. I’m saying get big without really worrying about specific body parts right now, why do you need to worry about your lats when everything else is small too? Put some effort into training lat width (again, look at meadows’ stuff) but don’t prioritise it right now.