Help with Blood Results After 12 Week Cycle

stonecold79 · February 20, 2019, 6:35pm

Hello all, new to the forum, but have spent a lot of time lurking.

I wonder if someone can help interpret blood results.

I am a 39 y/o male, 6ft 2in 205lb. 11-12% bf. Training for about 10 years, but been lifting min 4x per week for the past couple of years.

I started an 12 week 500mg test e cycle Nov 10th, which I finished earlier than expected on Dec 31st. Gained weight (up to 219 lbs) and strength, but got very sick around Dec 19th, for about 10 days, then immediately after also started to get mental type problems - anxiety, depression and jealousy. So I stopped the cycle straight away. I was taking arimidex eod on cycle.

I have felt terrible mentally every day in 2019, and through research thought my estrogen levels may be out of whack, which would bring on the symptoms I have. So I got blood work done for test and estrogen (which I am mad about as I should have done at the beginning)

My levels have come back as:

Test 11.1 nmol/L (normal range 8.64 - 29)
Oestradiol 40 pmol/L (normal range 95-223)

Can anybody give any advice on what to do. Thanks

blshaw · February 20, 2019, 7:24pm

You need more comprehensive bloods. Low E2 definitely makes me a bitch. Need to test your LH/FSH and SHBG with your Test and E2. If you have high SHBG your usable Test could be even lower than TT shows. Something is off since you are not aromatizing enough E2.

stonecold79 · February 20, 2019, 7:47pm

Thanks for the reply blshaw, I am from the UK and got my bloods done privately through Nuffield Health, these are the only test results they gave me.

Does anybody know of a better place to get blood done in the Uk? Thanks

blshaw · February 20, 2019, 8:11pm

Did you run a PCT? When did you stop taking the arimadex?

iron_yuppie · February 20, 2019, 8:43pm

Low e2 + low t = bad times

What was your pct like?

stonecold79 · February 20, 2019, 9:13pm

I planned my cycle precisely, (other than getting my blood work done first). Had everything ready, but when I started to go crazy I literally binned everything one night. Test, Adex, Nolva all in the bin. Just thought I would allow my body to fix itself, I knew that no PCT would be at the expense of my gains, but I didn’t care. I will build naturally, and I am ok with that. Steroids are not for everyone.

I stopped Arimidex about the 2nd Jan.

hrdlvn · February 20, 2019, 9:29pm

I have yet to find where Nolva does anything but stop bitch tits for too high E2 when you go off your cycle. We seem to metabolize T much faster than E2 so that is why one takes Nolva. But you took anastrozole as well so you don’t have high E2 ( it should be either or never both) and your T is now in the dumps because your pituitary gland has not started making LH and FSH to get your balls working again.

IMO you bining everything was the best thing to do. You have crashed your E2 and you have low T and that is why you feel like shit. Try to exersize eat good and get lots of sleep. Try to keep your spirits up by telling yourself this will pass. An it will you just need time. Again IMO there is no PCT out there to fix what you got.

stonecold79 · February 20, 2019, 10:02pm

Excellent post hrdlvn, thanks for your input.

I felt embarrassed posting that I did not run PCT, so it was good to know I did the right thing in your opinion. I researched my cycle for months before taking the plunge, I just underestimated the psychological effects.

I might get more detailed blood work done, and take the findings to my GP. In the meantime I will continue to exercise, lift regularly, eat clean and try and relax and sleep well. I am driving my very understanding wife crazy with my current insane behaviour, I guess there is no set time until my balls start to work again.

hrdlvn · July 10, 2019, 8:02am

Set her down and talk to her ask for her understanding and help you will be amazed at how much faster you will come out of this as a team.

I have a real issue with cycles/PCTs developed in the 80’s before anastrozole and HCG were even a thing.

What we really need is a way to kick start the pituitary gland to get LH and FSH flowing again. HCG will keep our balls kind of working because the ball see the HCG as LH so natural T production continues a little. With the proper and I said (((proper))) us of an AI to keep E2 levels a bit under control there is no need for Nolva. Running a high E2 when cycling is very good for the joints but if one starts getting too sensitive a very small does of an AI should bring the E2 just under that threshold.

This is my E2 when blasting

and my E2 when on TRT

In both levels I feel perfect.
I have a little calculation that I do that seems to keep me in check. I divid my E2 into my TT and if I get 15-25 I am golden if I go out of that range my feels libido Ed all start giving me trouble.

iron_yuppie · February 20, 2019, 11:24pm

Literally what Nolva does. That’s why it’s a standard for pct. It does precisely the thing that is needed to recover.

stonecold79 · February 20, 2019, 11:27pm

Would there be any benefit to running pct 7 weeks after my last pin considering my test and E2 are through the floor?

iron_yuppie · February 20, 2019, 11:31pm

Yes. Doctors treat low t with SERM monotherapy if they’re unwilling to prescribe testosterone. You did not really recover from your cycle. You’re still in a bad place and your choices are to either wait it out and hope for the best, or do what you should have done in the first place and run a proper pct. Of those two options which one sounds the most logical? Which one has the best chance to get you feeling better faster? This is an extremely easy choice my friend.

hrdlvn · February 21, 2019, 12:31am

Please post the drug makers discription or any technical document where this is stated. All my research shows it stops breast tissue from growing and nothing more. It doesn’t even reduce E2 like an AI does. You live with super high E2 and all the hell that brings but heah no man boobs.

I can’t find anything that says it jump starts the pituitary glands secretion of LH and FSH.

deanis55 · February 21, 2019, 12:35am

A simple google search shows multiple studies on this.

hrdlvn · February 21, 2019, 12:38am

so post them. I don’t believe you.

deanis55 · February 21, 2019, 12:39am

I wouldn’t be too concerned, your only 7 weeks from last pin and didnt run a pct, your probably not doing too bad all things considered. As @iron_yuppie said consider running a pct and see where you are 6-8 weeks from now.

deanis55 · February 21, 2019, 12:39am

You need me to hold your hand?

yubs · February 21, 2019, 1:22am

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Tamoxifen treatment in male infertility. I. Effect on spermatozoa.

IG Kotoulas, E Cardamakis, J Michopoulos, D Mitropoulos and A Dounis, Fertility and sterility, May 1994

To evaluate the effects of tamoxifen treatment on sperm density, motility, vitality, and morphology.Placebo-controlled, randomized study.Outpatient department.Patients were assigned to two comparable groups: group A (n = 122) was treated with 10 mg tamoxifen twice daily for a period of 3 months and group B (n = 117) was given placebo for the same period of time, following a previously randomized design.In every patient sperm density, motility, viability, and morphology were evaluated 3 months after cessation of treatment.Mean sperm density in group A improved significantly with a more pronounced improvement in severe oligozoospermic men. Sperm density was found significantly improved compared with group B. Dead spermatozoa in group A significantly decreased after tamoxifen treatment and were also found significantly decreased compared with group B.It is concluded that tamoxifen exerts a beneficial effect on sperm density and number of live spermatozoa but it has no substantial effect in sperm motility and morphology.

https://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(15)01402-8/fulltext

iron_yuppie · February 21, 2019, 2:34am

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men.

A Vermeulen and F Comhaire, Fertility and sterility, Mar 1978

The administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the administration of tamoxifen. In fact, prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRL. Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels. A significant increase in sperm density was observed only in subjects with oligospermia below 20 X 10(6)/ml and normal basal FSH levels. When basal FSH levels were increased or oligospermia was moderate (greater than 20 X 10(6)/ml); no effect on sperm density was seen. As sperm density increased, FSH levels decreased, suggesting an inhibin effect. Sperm motility was not improved by tamoxifen treatment. In five boys with delayed puberty, tamoxifen treatment appeared to activate the pituitary-gonadal axis and pubertal development.

iron_yuppie · February 21, 2019, 2:38am

The earliest data showing that SERMs could raise testosterone, LH, and FSH was discovered in 1968.