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Help Redesigning This Program

Hey, I have been trying to design a weight training program that will complement my martial art, called Hapkido. I have been doing Hapkido for over 6 years yet I am still a novice in terms of strength and muscle size. My main goals are to improve strength and size as I realize that it is one of the most, if not, the most important foundation for practically all athletes to have.

Though I would like to incorporate training of the hands, wrists, feet, ankles, neck, as well in order to improve my striking power and to prevent future injuries in those areas. I tried to design and lay out a resistance training program myself with all the knowledge I have on strength and conditioning and anatomy and physiology.

I also tried getting help with obtaining a well-designed program for myself by asking questions in the beginners forum; however, trainers such as Colucci had eventually replied that the training routine I laid out is not going to build strength, power, or muscle size and that it’s poorly designed in terms of exercise choice, training frequency, bodypart imbalance, and set/rep scheme. He suggested that I go to combat forum here, for input.

I’ve even looked all over the internet for countless days, but I have found no well-designed program for Hapkidoists like myself that also will get me to my goals. I know it seems as if I am overanalyzing on what to do, but I would appreciate it if someone could explain to me on why this training routine that I’ve copied below won’t work and how I can significantly improve it so that it optimally complement my training in Hapkido.

Monday: 45 min. Hapkido class. After class, I would perform a few forearms exercises in a
circuit including wrist rollers, knuckle pushups, and fingertip pushups. I would do
one set for each exercise per circuit without going to failure and then repeat the
entire again 1-2 more times.
a few hours before or after my Hapkido class I would do:
Neck Extension, 1 x 15, progressing to 3 x 25
Neck Flexion, 1 x 15, progressing to 3 x 25
Neck Lateral Flexion (each way), 1 x 15, progressing to 3 x 25
Then Maybe 2x25 supination
Afterwards maybe 2x25 pronation

Tuesday: My first main resistance training workout of the day would include:
4x12 (total of 24 reps on both legs) Dynamic Barbell Lunges
3x12 Barbell Good Mornings (with slightly bent legs)
3x5 Wide-grip pullups. On this exercise I do about 5 reps with good form
and then do another 2-3 reps with the assistance of a giant rubber band.
3x12 dumbbell bent-over rows
3x12 dumbbell pullovers
3x12 standingdumbbell shoulder press
After being done with all those exercises I would right afterwards do
3x12 standing calf raises with no added weight
3x12 standing toe raises with no added weight

My second main resistance training workout of the day (few hours after the first
main and assistance workouts of the day would include:
2x30 hindu push-ups
2x30 hindu squats
2x 3-4 min. planks
After being done with all those exercises I would right afterwards do
towel grip pullups (with as many as I can without going to failure)
Neck Extension, 1 x 10, progressing to 3 x 6-8
Neck Flexion, 1 x 10, progressing to 3 x 6-8
Neck Lateral Flexion (each way), 1 x 10, progressing to 3 x 6-8
3 sets of farmer’s walk for almost as long as I can
3 sets of finger band extensions
3 sets of plate pinch extensions

Wednesday: Day off

Thursday: Same as on Monday

Friday: Same as on Tuesday

Saturday: Running for approx. 30 min. with vibram five finger shoes on

Sunday: Day off

hey mate,

are you competing in a weight class or just trying to develop basic strength/size to assist you in your training and/or in a situation?

[quote]flipya4it wrote:
hey mate,

are you competing in a weight class or just trying to develop basic strength/size to assist you in your training and/or in a situation?[/quote]

I am just trying to develop basic strength/size to assist me in my training for Hapkido.

ok,well at a glance your routine doesn’t have any “base” in my opinion.for someone looking to have size/strength,and I expect we’re actually talking about “power”,you need to be working some compound lifts.

do some research online and you’ll notice that the weight training protocols a lot of fighters use has shifted from the 12 rep down to the 5 rep.12 rep being a predominantly hypertrophy range and 5 rep being a strength range beginning to enter a hypertrophy range.

more research(rosstraining would be a good source) will show you how the more experienced are using a basic weightlifting compound movement closely supersetted by a complimentary power movement.they are building basic strength whilst also training the body to be explosive.

as you know,your sport needs to come first if that is your priority so your next considerations will be how to arrange your strength program to allow you to recover and actually apply the new power you are developing.

throw something together and report back mate and i’m sure the guys on both forums will be able to assist you to finetune it.

cheers,

Your program seems “complicated”, to say the least. I am not skilled enough to develop a program for you, because my main goal is not weights, its training in martial arts. IMHO, train in your martial art and start the 5-3-1 program. Simple and effective.

That program looks “complex” and possibly “unrealistic”.

I see you using a two a day schedule, for lifting…as a martial artist.

Generally things you value the most should get the most attention. So, I have to ask where does the hapkido fit in? Are you doing three a days for it? What exactly is your schedule overall like.

Most people on this board tend to gravitate towards a 2-3 days of strength work scheme, both for recovery and because skill work takes precedence.

The hierarchy goes:

Skill Work
than
Cardio/Conditioning-ignore aerobic vs lactic acid vs whatever and read as NOT GETTING TIRED
than
Strength Work

The absolute best way to navigate through these is to take the words of kmcnyc as holy writ “Do them all until they start interfering with each other, than scale back.” Scale back at the bottom, strength work, first.

Chris Colluci is a fantastic source of information, especially for someone who is a beginner/suffering from trying to design the “perfect” program.

If you are relatively new to weight training I recommend several months of Starting Strength. NOT because I think it is the only, or even the best, way to build muscle or strength, but because it drills “good enough” form into you in the bench press, standing press, deadlift, and squat. Taking 3 months to not develop shoulder problems down the road should be an easy sell for someone who is studying a “The Path is the Goal” honest to god TMA.

Everyone thinks they have great form, many don’t. A lot of people get banged up earlier than they need to because of it. So…buy the book, even if you don’t do the program.

When you are new to weight training, just go ahead and do the program as is, with no modifications. Save the thinking/studying for your chosen art. If you hate the idea of starting strength there are other beginer’s programs that can also work well, but I am biased towards the injury prevention side of things.

After your beginner’s program stops “paying dividends” than you can get into a more complex desing, because you will need it and get good value from it. I will say that for martial artists grip strength and “core” strength are things that you can never have too much of. The basic exercises will pay the biggest dividends at first.

The answers to the following will help:

1.) How old are you?
2.) What is your work/school schedule?
3.) What is your Hapkido training schedule outside of class?
4.) What is your athletic background?
5.) What is your weight background?
6.) What, if any, perceived gaps/flaws are you trying to fill/fix with weights?

Regards,

Robert A

[quote]flipya4it wrote:
ok,well at a glance your routine doesn’t have any “base” in my opinion.for someone looking to have size/strength,and I expect we’re actually talking about “power”,you need to be working some compound lifts.

[/quote]

Wait I don’t understand. Lunges, good mornings, pull-ups, bent-over rows, pullovers, standing shoulder presses, Hindu push-ups, Hindu squats, and most likely planks are all compound lifts or movements. So what are you talking about?

I suppose 12 reps for each set won’t produce significant hypertrophy, but it does help develop or at least maintain considerable muscular endurance. That’s why I’ve been working with around 12 reps.

more research(rosstraining would be a good source) will show you how the more experienced are using a basic weightlifting compound movement closely supersetted by a complimentary power movement.they are building basic strength whilst also training the body to be explosive.

Also, I actually just got the Infinite Intensity book from Ross Enamait, and he says in the book that you should do several 10-15 min. mini-workouts theoughout the week of training the hands, feet, and neck. Plus, his 50 day training plan for fighters consists of having a couple of days per week where you do two workouts a day; for example, on a day like that, you would do an interval workout in the morning, and then in the afternoon or evening you would do a core workout entailing about 5 core exercises to do. In addition, his plan has some sort of demanding workout every workout everyday except for every 5th day which is a rest day. So, why doesn’t my plan that I designed on my own work just as well?

[quote]Bull_Scientist wrote:

[quote]flipya4it wrote:
ok,well at a glance your routine doesn’t have any “base” in my opinion.for someone looking to have size/strength,and I expect we’re actually talking about “power”,you need to be working some compound lifts.

[/quote]

Wait I don’t understand. Lunges, good mornings, pull-ups, bent-over rows, pullovers, standing shoulder presses, Hindu push-ups, Hindu squats, and most likely planks are all compound lifts or movements. So what are you talking about?

I suppose 12 reps for each set won’t produce significant hypertrophy, but it does help develop or at least maintain considerable muscular endurance. That’s why I’ve been working with around 12 reps.

more research(rosstraining would be a good source) will show you how the more experienced are using a basic weightlifting compound movement closely supersetted by a complimentary power movement.they are building basic strength whilst also training the body to be explosive.

Also, I actually just got the Infinite Intensity book from Ross Enamait, and he says in the book that you should do several 10-15 min. mini-workouts theoughout the week of training the hands, feet, and neck. Plus, his 50 day training plan for fighters consists of having a couple of days per week where you do two workouts a day; for example, on a day like that, you would do an interval workout in the morning, and then in the afternoon or evening you would do a core workout entailing about 5 core exercises to do. In addition, his plan has some sort of demanding workout every workout everyday except for every 5th day which is a rest day. So, why doesn’t my plan that I designed on my own work just as well?
[/quote]

none of your listed excercises compare to a deadlift or a back squat with decent weight on(i.e what YOU can lift for 5 reps).my advice to build basic power is to get familiar with these lifts.

if you have ross’s book then you are receiving advice from a lifetime fighter who now trains fighters.he is also tremendously strong AND fit.my advice would be to follow what he sets down to the letter and see how it works for you.

I’ll try to catch up with this later, but for now the only real basic lifts you have are lunges, good mornings, and chin ups. Compound means more than one joint is moving at a time, basic means foundational movements. Look up dan john for a good overview. Program layout from him is not going to be optimal for fighting necessarily, but he does an excellent job lookong at the basic movements every athlete needs to have.

Flipy imo a good morning is near as good as a deadlift for low back and hips but not near as good in a lot of other things. I’d classify it as a basic strength movement personally, although probly higher risk than a deadlift or squat.

Post hasnt shown up to edit so… I forgot to add bent rows and standing shoulder press are basic movements. Misread your post bull. I do not see hindu squats as useful variations of squats. Unless you’re 70 years old.

Push-ups are not strength movements. They are conditioning (i.e. “don’t get tired” as the inimitable Robert A says) movements.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
I’ll try to catch up with this later, but for now the only real basic lifts you have are lunges, good mornings, and chin ups. Compound means more than one joint is moving at a time, basic means foundational movements. Look up dan john for a good overview. Program layout from him is not going to be optimal for fighting necessarily, but he does an excellent job lookong at the basic movements every athlete needs to have.

Flipy imo a good morning is near as good as a deadlift for low back and hips but not near as good in a lot of other things. I’d classify it as a basic strength movement personally, although probly higher risk than a deadlift or squat.[/quote]

hey Aragorn,

agree re the good mornings,in fact all the exercises have a place as time goes on.

I guess i’m trying to simplify things for the OP.a base of overall body strength before adding in the other exercises as he sees weak points etc.

nothing worse than drilling and drilling your skills,gaining confidence in them,only to have an unskilled yet stronger opponent simply overpower you or a newcomer to the gym dominating you because they are simply stronger.

just one more quick point-I remember years ago I wanted to build up my forearms and grip and also my neck muscles.

I bought a neck harness,made a wrist roller and bought 3 levels of captains of crush grippers and went to work-the results were not significant.

around this time I discovered the deadlift.i liked the lift and got strong at it.i have,since then,never needed the harness or grippers or roller.

this is why i’m a fan of the bigger lifts,you can spin your wheels for years with smaller exercises and regret the time lost when you finally discover what you’ve been missing.

Not meaning to come off like a cunt…

but tbh I doubt you are getting dominated by newcomers just because of size and strength. I think it may be the case that your skills are not as refined or practiced as you like to think they are.

[quote]flipya4it wrote:
just one more quick point-I remember years ago I wanted to build up my forearms and grip and also my neck muscles.

I bought a neck harness,made a wrist roller and bought 3 levels of captains of crush grippers and went to work-the results were not significant.

around this time I discovered the deadlift.i liked the lift and got strong at it.i have,since then,never needed the harness or grippers or roller.

this is why i’m a fan of the bigger lifts,you can spin your wheels for years with smaller exercises and regret the time lost when you finally discover what you’ve been missing.[/quote]

Yep, i understand and agree. I have yet to see a guy who can deadlift 500 with a week grip. Same goes for snatching heavy without straps (too advanced for the op likely) or snatch grip deadlft. Granted no need to dl 500 if your main goal is to be a fighter or martial artist lol. Pretty much just agree, i was clarifying some things.

[quote]flipya4it wrote:
none of your listed excercises compare to a deadlift or a back squat with decent weight on(i.e what YOU can lift for 5 reps).my advice to build basic power is to get familiar with these lifts.

if you have ross’s book then you are receiving advice from a lifetime fighter who now trains fighters.he is also tremendously strong AND fit.my advice would be to follow what he sets down to the letter and see how it works for you.[/quote]

I understand that what you’re saying is that you generally can’t use as much weight on compounds such as pullovers and lunges as you can with compounds fundamental movements such as barbell deadlifts, barbell presses, barbell bench press, and barbell squats; therefore, those barbell exercises would be better for the beginner to do because they build “overall” foundational strength and mass.

However, in Ross’s book, he didn’t include barbell deadlift or barbell squats in any of his sample workouts or in the 50 day fighter’s program. He also says that you don’t need barbells to get strong and/or big. I don’t mean to argue with you for the sake of arguing, but I am still puzzled by some apparently conflicting info. and I don’t see how Ross’s programs design(s) are that much different than the weightlifting that I came up with on my own.

Please enlighten me, because I am also trying to learn how to create workout on my own by making sure that I understand everything that I need know with regard to program designing.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Post hasnt shown up to edit so… I forgot to add bent rows and standing shoulder press are basic movements. Misread your post bull. I do not see hindu squats as useful variations of squats. Unless you’re 70 years old.

Push-ups are not strength movements. They are conditioning (i.e. “don’t get tired” as the inimitable Robert A says) movements. [/quote]

True, push-ups don’t really build much strength unless you use something like a weighted vest on you while doing the movement, but I like to do them for supplemental conditioning on my upper body.

BTW Aragorn, I have been wondering as to why barbell or bilateral exercises such as back or front squats, barbell deadlifts, barbell bench presses, etc. would be more fatiguing on the CNS than dumbbell exercises. Just because you are typically using heavier weights as a whole with barbell? I mean unilateral exercises such as lunges or dumbbell exercises such as bent-over dumbbells rows require more balance and activity from your stabilizers, so couldn’t unilateral or dumbbells exercises create about as much CNS fatigue as barbell or bilateral exercises, but in a different way?

[quote]Bull_Scientist wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Post hasnt shown up to edit so… I forgot to add bent rows and standing shoulder press are basic movements. Misread your post bull. I do not see hindu squats as useful variations of squats. Unless you’re 70 years old.

Push-ups are not strength movements. They are conditioning (i.e. “don’t get tired” as the inimitable Robert A says) movements. [/quote]

True, push-ups don’t really build much strength unless you use something like a weighted vest on you while doing the movement, but I like to do them for supplemental conditioning on my upper body.

BTW Aragorn, I have been wondering as to why barbell or bilateral exercises such as back or front squats, barbell deadlifts, barbell bench presses, etc. would be more fatiguing on the CNS than dumbbell exercises. Just because you are typically using heavier weights as a whole with barbell? I mean unilateral exercises such as lunges or dumbbell exercises such as bent-over dumbbells rows require more balance and activity from your stabilizers, so couldn’t unilateral or dumbbells exercises create about as much CNS fatigue as barbell or bilateral exercises, but in a different way? [/quote]

More weight is a factor yes, but an additional big factor is the spinal loading inherent in back squats and deadlifts (and to a lesser degree in front squat). Spinal loading has an additional fatiguing effect. Also you are using more of your total muscle mass to move the bar, which creates an additional fatigue. The tension you need for a back squat or deadlift is infinitely higher than the tension you need for a dumbbell lunge, even a heavy lunge (assuming you’re actually performing them as they should be). Total body tension isn’t even close to comparable.

Look, unilateral work is very very valuable for a lot of reasons and should not be ignored. However, you simply have to stop overthinking things and start fucking doing them. I’ve seen a number of your posts in the beginner’s section, and there’s a lot of talk and a lot of thought and shit for action. No offense intended, but you kinda need a smack across the face to get down to business man.

As long as you do push-ups and hindu squats for conditioning instead of strength and muscle you’re fine. But that means you only have 2 real days of training for strength and power in a week and honestly it’s not a draining workout that you listed. The guys at the MMA gym here will do stuff like that 4 days a week on top of training easily and in fact train harder more often.

You are 24 years old and 150 lbs. You should have a goal to squat 225 clean for reps. I have a 65 year old man that does it for 5 reps. and a 50 year old 150 lb ER doc that can do it for 8 reps… both below parallel. If they can do it you’d better be able to at least squat it for a rep or two as well. You can talk about forearm training and shit after you get your butt into action.

Best of luck.

Tuesday: My first main resistance training workout of the day would include:
4x12 (total of 24 reps on both legs) Dynamic Barbell Lunges
3x12 Barbell Good Mornings (with slightly bent legs)
3x5 Wide-grip pullups. On this exercise I do about 5 reps with good form
and then do another 2-3 reps with the assistance of a giant rubber band.
3x12 dumbbell bent-over rows
3x12 dumbbell pullovers
3x12 standingdumbbell shoulder press
After being done with all those exercises I would right afterwards do
3x12 standing calf raises with no added weight
3x12 standing toe raises with no added weight

You only have 14 real sets of work here–2 sets of lunges on each leg (you write it out 2x12, not 4x12. The notation is “12 for each leg” for 24 total reps 2x12)

2 sets lunges, 3 sets good mornings, 3 sets pull-ups, 3 sets bent rows, 3 sets shoulder press. If this is what you are set on doing and won’t change, I’d have you do it 4 times a week to get benefit out of it.

Pullovers are next to worthless for most athletes and belong only in bodybuilding. bodyweight-only calf and toe raises are completely worthless and would count as a warm-up or cool down only. Calf raises are complete bullshit for a combat athlete, especially one untrained with weightlifting. Calves do not need an excuse to be even tighter than most people’s are from running, jumping, kicking and everything else.

Your neck exercises should not count as a workout. Sorry. I would tell you that at this level you will get all the neck conditioning you could need out of getting bigger traps via deadlifts, but I do not think neck exercises can hurt a fighter (obviously assuming done correctly and not recklessly) and can always be a positive thing. However they do not count as anything the way you are doing them–they would be something I do on an “off” day while watching tv, they are in no way a workout.

Farmer’s walks count as conditioning and are very good for that but it depends on the amount of weight you are carrying and how long. There is a “trainer” I know having people carry around 10 lb dumbbells for “farmer’s walks”. That’s worthless. On the other hand, they can be absolute killers and are amazing at conditioning.

[quote]Bull_Scientist wrote:
Please enlighten me, because I am also trying to learn how to create workout on my own by making sure that I understand everything that I need know with regard to program designing. [/quote]

Simple rule for a workout: Include one pulling movement for the upper body, one pushing movement and one lower body movement. These are the fundamentals. Or, take this more extensive list from Dan John:

pull
push
squat variation
hip hinge variation (deadlift, swing, clean, snatch)
loaded carries

Ross Enamait includes a lot of good stuff. But what you do is focusing on the details. You completely ignore that this dude also tells you to work up to pistol squats, handstand push ups and one arm chin ups if strength is the goal.

There is such a thing as primary movements (c.a.). Once you have these covered and worked on them HARD for half a year you can worry about isolation. If you have an hour to work out and it’s either hard, fundamental movements or wrist rollers and push ups ‘for conditioning’, I’ll choose the former. So would Ross. Stop applying principles you haven’t yet grasped. Pick a program that someone else designed, use it for 6-12 months and see what you learn. Don’t try to learn everything from books; personal experience will be far more valuable.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]flipya4it wrote:
just one more quick point-I remember years ago I wanted to build up my forearms and grip and also my neck muscles.

I bought a neck harness,made a wrist roller and bought 3 levels of captains of crush grippers and went to work-the results were not significant.

around this time I discovered the deadlift.i liked the lift and got strong at it.i have,since then,never needed the harness or grippers or roller.

this is why i’m a fan of the bigger lifts,you can spin your wheels for years with smaller exercises and regret the time lost when you finally discover what you’ve been missing.[/quote]

Yep, i understand and agree. I have yet to see a guy who can deadlift 500 with a week grip. Same goes for snatching heavy without straps (too advanced for the op likely) or snatch grip deadlft. Granted no need to dl 500 if your main goal is to be a fighter or martial artist lol. Pretty much just agree, i was clarifying some things.[/quote]

The thing is that grip strength (like pretty much all types of strength) is movement and position specific. Dead lifting will get you strong at “support gripping” which of course can be useful in fighting, but it won’t do diddly for “pinch gripping” and isn’t great at developing “crushing gripping” either. COC and other high tension grippers do a great job of building crushing grip, but aren’t great for support or punching grip. And finally stuff like rafter chins or “Hub” training are great for pinch grip, but not great for support or crushing grip.

So it really depends on what measuring stick you are using. I’ve seen guys who could deadlift way more than 500 lbs be unable to close even the COC #2 (which I can do fairly easily and I’m nowhere near their level of dead lifting). Heck of all of the WSM guys at the Arnold expo a few years back the only guy that could do it was Brian Shaw and it wasn’t even a piece of cake for him.

If you want to have great support grip, then train for it. If you want tons of crushing grip, then train for that. If you want great pinch grip, then train for pinch grip. Personally, I’d say that for a martial artist they should train some of each, but I agree that you can kill two birds with one stone by doing stuff like Deadlifts, farmer’s carries, or weighted chins. I’d suggest checking out John Brookfield’s material for lots of great all around grip training supplemental stuff if you’re really interested.