T Nation

Help Quitting TRT. Age 48 in UK


#1

hi Guys
After a bit of advice/input/help regarding quitting TRT.
Before any treatment my data was:
Age : 48
Height : 6’2”
Waist : 36
Weight : 201
Body and facial hair : facial hair yes, minimal body hair
Where I carry fat : belly and love handles
Health conditions : nil
Diet : pretty clean
Training : CV fairly high miles on bike
Testicle aches: nil
Morning wood : no
History of iodine & selenium intake: nil

Bloods prior to any testosterone TRT
FSH 1.7 mIU/mL (range 0.95 - 11.95)
LH 3.9 mIU/mL (1.14 - 8.75)
Oestradiol 140 pmol/L (40 -160)
Testosterone 19.7 nmol/L (9.00 - 30.00)
SHBG 32 nmol/L (18 -50)
Free Androgen 61.6 ( 25 -130)

TSH 1.75 uIU/mL (0.35 - 4.94)

Haemoglobin 169 g/L (135 – 180)
Red Blood Cells 5.47 x10^12/L (4.5 - 5.5)
Haematocrit 0.475 (0.40 -0.50)

due to my symptoms (lethargic, reduced sexual desires, decreased motivations) the consultand felt that i was not responding to my natural test and prescribed TRT of 125mg sustanon via im injection, no HCG and no AI etc. after sticking to this protocal for a year, and discussing with my consultant i am stopping as fed up of feeling like crap! Anxiety through the roof, and foggy feeling.
last sustanon injection was on 16th Jan and feel pretty lousy.

Questions: PCT, my consultant recomended just stopping Sustanon, no PCT required. from everything i have read this is questionable??
not keen on throwing Clomid into my system due to sides…so, advice required on what PCT, when to start etc.

Bloods below were taken 1 week after my last inj:
FSH 0.2 mIU/mL range 0.95 - 11.95
LH 0.1 mIU/mL 1.14 - 8.75
Oestradiol 140 pmol/L 40 -160
Testosterone 32.5 nmol/L 9.00 - 30.00
SHBG 23 nmol/L 18 -50
Free Androgen 140.9 25 -130

Globin 35 g/L 18 -34
TSH 1.81 uIU/mL 0.35 - 4.94

Haemoglobin 169 g/L 135 - 180
Red Blood Cells 5.82 x10^12/L 4.5 - 5.5
Haematocrit 0.500 0.40 -0.50

Also was thinking of donating blood to get Haematocrit, Red blood cells down? is this a good idea?


KSman is Here
KSman is Here
#2

All you may need to feel better while on injections is anastrozole. Your e2 is high for a man. Even though you should have taken the estradiol sensitive test, your is high.

Restart protocol is in stickies.


#3

thanks Charlie, although i am pretty fed up of the roller coaster ride i have had and really looking to try life off the Sustanon for a while, without the needles!


#4

in case you have trouble finding. HPTA Restart for TRT w/Application to Gear & PCT

just to help others, how often were you injecting?


#5

All you need to do is lower you dosage, some guys feel terrible near the top of the range, you can’t expect TRT to work without adjusting doses at least a couple of times, I’ve had to lower my dosage a few times before I started feeling good. Your red blood cell is too high indicating your dose is too high, you doctor is a moron!

I couldn’t even handle 100 mg weekly (25mg EOD), felt like pure shit! I felt like death in the 800 ranges without an AI, doctors in your country are the problem, not TRT. Just lower you dose and I promise everything will change, try 90mg weekly.


#6

thanks for the link charlie
i was injecting weekly, which initialy semed to work.
however the rollercoaster of feeling awful and continual anxiety has left me just wanting off the rollercoaster!
so pretty determined to give it a go again without TRT, maybe i will regret this- but also think i will regret not trying.
so hopefully will use the Nolvadex with anastrozole option for 6 weeks from the restart protocol you linked me to. will discuss with doc. this afternoon and see what his thoughts are -its got to be better than cold turkey surely>?
Anxiety has been awful to deal with, and tough for my partner.


#7

You’re not listening to reason, your dose is too high, red blood cell too high, your blood is too thick. Red blood cells and hematocrit is too high because dose is too high, your doctors an idiot and testing for LH and FSH while on TRT is unnecessary. You stop TRT and your T will drop to zero–>0.

Your consultant recommended stop Sustanon because the doctor know their in over their head, this is not their specialty. You wouldn’t be here if you didn’t agree with it, if you did you wouldn’t have even bothered to start a thread.


#8

Thank you Systemlord. I understand what you are saying, and completely agree. Despite the consultant being based in the leading Mens Helath Centre in the UK
dealing with TRT, he has got my doseage wrong, and the sides from having elevated RBC, Test & Estrogen have been rough.
If I was 100% convinced that TRT was the only way forward I would be lowering my dose as you suggested, 90mg a week as a reference point. However given that I have stopped the injections, it seems an opportunity has arisen to try life off the TRT & injections, and in doing this I would like to give myself the best chance of restarting my natural production (maybe this time my body may respond better to it?). Now, I fully understand this may be futile, and I may feel even worse, in which case i will be back on TRT, albeit at a lower dose as you suggest.
However i would like to try, and dont want to regret not trying at a later date and was looking for advice on the least harsh and most suitable PCT for my situation.
hope this makes sense?


#9

Ask about PCT in the pharma section

If do decide to stay off, once PCT is done try this…


#10

Do not look at PCT in Pharma forum, the advice there is wrong/stupid and harmful.

The problem is your protocol and the state of health care there. If you found a private physician you could get things right.

Peaking T levels help drive RBC and hematocrit. Steadier levels from 50mg subq, not IM, twice a week would be better. Meanwhile take one mini aspirin per day to improve blood flow, it makes red blood cells slippery. Avoid dehydration at all times and for lab work. Avoid iron fortified {flour | breads | rice | vitamins etc} men do not need added iron unless something is wrong. Read the food labels.

As with most guys here, especially from the UK, you have some thyroid problems and these typically are from a lack of iodine. All the more there as iodized salt is not in most stores, but in a few.

TSH should be closer to 1.0
Your lab result is “normal” because the lab ranges are simply stupid.
Please eval your overall thyroid function via oral body temperatures, see below. Read the thyroid basics sticky.

Also see the “HPTA restart” sticky to understand objectives and alternative methods.

Many guys with TRT done right do not feel well with thyroid issues.


Please read the stickies found here: About the T Replacement Category

  • advice for new guys - need more info about you
  • things that damage your hormones
  • protocol for injections
  • finding a TRT doc

Evaluate your overall thyroid function by checking oral body temperatures as per the thyroid basics sticky. Thyroid hormone fT3 is what gets the job done and it regulates mitochondrial activity, the source of ATP which is the universal currency of cellular energy. This is part of the body’s temperature control loop. This can get messed up if you are iodine deficient. In many countries, you need to be using iodized salt. Other countries add iodine to dairy or bread.

KSman is simply a regular member on this site. Nothing more other than highly active.

I can be a bit abrupt in my replies and recommendations. I have a lot of ground to cover as this forum has become much more active in the last two years. I can’t follow threads that go deep over time. You need to respond to all of my points and requests as soon as possible before you fall off of my radar. The worse problems are guys who ignore issues re thyroid, body temperatures, history of iodized salt. Please do not piss people off saying that lab results are normal, we need lab number and ranges.

The value that you get out of this process and forum depends on your effort and performance. The bulk of your learning is reading/studying the suggested stickies.


#11

Thanks KSman, a really interesting post and read…

Meanwhile take one mini aspirin per day to improve blood flow, it makes red blood cells slippery.

Thanks, now taking 1x 75mg asprin per day.

Avoid dehydration at all times and for lab work.

Working on this, switched from caffeinated coffee to decaf and camomile tea in big mugs a while back, urine is pale/clear mostly.

Avoid iron fortified {flour | breads | rice | vitamins etc} men do not need added iron unless something is wrong. Read the food labels.

Thanks

As with most guys here, especially from the UK, you have some thyroid problems and these typically are from a lack of iodine. All the more there as iodized salt is not in most stores, but in a few.
TSH should be closer to 1.0

TSH 2 weeks ago (last bloods) was 1.81 uIU/nL with a range of 0.35 – 4.95 and shown as low on the scale.

Please eval your overall thyroid function via oral body temperatures, see below. Read the thyroid basics sticky.

Read it thanks, and will take temperature tomorrow morning.
Have ordered some LUGOLS IODINE drops to add to water and drink as per sticky

Also see the “HPTA restart” sticky to understand objectives and alternative methods.

Read it thanks, this is the protocol I put forward to my Doc, he favoured the 20 mg Nolvadex EOD for 4-6 weeks and will discuss this with me on Monday.

Thank you for your help, will post again when I have my waking body temperature, and again after Monday – my doc is attending a TRT forum this week and will discuss the restart protocols I gave him, I am due to talk to him again on Monday, which is 3 weeks from my last injection, so a good time to start PCT in whichever format he is willing to support (or I will have to go to an online pharma to sort).

Thanks again from one engineer to another!


#12

KSman…have taken temperature on 2x mornings now
97.1 & 97.4 F
so i am guessing this is a little low.
have iodine drops and after reading the stickies am under the impression that there i should include a loading period of approx 4 weeks (37.5mg per day, which is 3 drops to give me 1g-1.5g) and then a maintenace dose…which is lower but not sure what?
any pointers appreciated


#13

Update

Now 3 weeks from my last 125mg sustanon injection.
6 days from starting 1x 75mg aspirin per day
1x Iodine 18.75mg & Potassium iodide 37.55mg (not sure about this dosage??)
Fish oil
Vit D3 125 mcg
Grapeseed extract 4000mg

Spoke to my doctor who is extremely hesitant in giving me any Arimidex or Nolva (which were my preference for PCT). His rational being that they are both very strong drugs that he would only recomend if required, and we can always introduce them as symptoms appear-and as I seem fine now there is no need at present.
I understand his thought process to a point, although I was of course hoping for ‘preventative’ pct, rather than ‘cure’ if that makes sense.

Anyhow, in general feeling a lot better than when I was on TRT/sustanon, no anxiety, infact a feeling of general well being and peace, no drop off in libido (although I do realize some of the sustanon will still be in my system) and still getting morning wood.
So all good so far, just playing ‘wait and see’ at the moment.

Any thoughts on when I should feel the full effects of coming off TRT?
When should my body start to produce its own test/sperm etc?
Is the iodine protocol sufficient?
and at what points should I get bloods to confirm progress?

Thanks for any input guys


#14

4 weeks from my last 125mg Sustanon injection and finally got my doc to prescribe Nolvadex. also had bloods taken to see where i am, as although feeling anxious in the morning and having a few joint issues (knee inflamation), prior to introducing any more hormone altering drugs into my system i was looking for any advice?

Bloods are:

FOLLICLE STIM. HORMONE 1.7 IU/L 1.5 - 12.4
LUTEINISING HORMONE 2.5 IU/L 1.7 - 8.6
TESTOSTERONE 12.2 nmol/L 7.6 - 31.4
SEX HORMONE BINDING GLOB 48 nmol/L 16 - 55
Testosterone/SHBG Ratio 25.4 range 24 - 104
17-Beta OESTRADIOL <44 pmol/L < 192
D.H.E.A. Sulphate 6.6 umol/L 0.44 - 13.4

Any input appreciated on adding nolvadex?


#15

You were feeling a lot better 6 days ago because the level of Sustanon in your body dropped to a more optimal amount for your own physiology.

Together with the drop in Sustanon, your E2 will have fallen from very high, to a lower healthier level, good for well being, libido & sex function.

Bear in mind how you felt 6 days ago & what others have said - that you needed a lower dose of Sustanon via more frequent smaller quantity injections.

I do hope a HPTA restart works for you though! In an ideal world none of us would need any medication.


#16

He will eventually figure it out when he crashes after 3 weeks, he has lowered his dose in his system by stopping treatment. The reason you feel better is because E2 is lower, which lowering your dosage would have done.


#17

thanks mrmeeseeks
i know the odds are against it, however like i said in my first post - i think i would regret not trying this one time before accepting lifelong TRT.
am due to start Nolva only PCT (KSman protocol) tomorrow, so thats a month on from last injection. will have next bloods done in 2 weeks to see where i am going and post.


#18

thanks fro the reply systemlord
i am now just over 4 weeks from my last injection, and am due to start PCT tomorrow. i realise by stopping i have lowered the T & E in my sytem which has helped with the sides i was experiencing. however, as i said in my first post, i think i would regret not trying one time to see where i am at, off the TRT.
will post bloods as i progress.


#19

I hope it goes well mate, I’ll follow this thread :slight_smile:


#20

I think I misunderstood your first post :S Did you mean that before any TRT or medication your Total T was 19.07 nmol/L but your E2 was 140 pmol/L ?

Those were your figures untouched by medication?