T Nation

Help please! Potential Gyno problem!?


#1

Okay guys, first let me say that it's nice to meet everyone. Although I'm a new addition to T-Nation, I've been reading plsts from here (and other forums) for about a year or so now. I chose TN because of the amount of experienced posters. You fellas really seem to know what your doing and the level of knowledge I've received from here is far greater than any other place, so good job and keep it up guys.

Now on to the problem. I've been liftin for about 7 years now give or take, and pretty much all of it has been all natural. Ive got some experience with gear, although it's pretty limited. About ten months ago, a friend of mine or ahold of some Anadrol 50. He ask me if i were interested and at first I was skeptical of course, but after doing some research (admittedly not enough) I chose to get some.

I got 25 tablets and did one a day for weekdays and a half a tab for saturday and Sunday. I ran it like this until it was gone. I gained about 23 pounds of muscle and water bloat. I was obviously stronger than ever before, yet I also had a little bit of acne (easily controlled) and my nipples got a bit puffy and sensitive. I did not do any post cycle therapy.

You heard me right.. NO PCT! Now this isn't because I didn't want to. It's because I simply did not have a source for anything. The nipple thing kind of bothered me, but it really didn't show up until I only had about 8 days left. I didn't notice any testicular atrophy, just the nipple thing that kind of bothered me. I very seriously considered buying some nolva or clomid off the net (because unless I understand wrong arimidex wouldn't work with A50).

But with all the posters screaming about getting ripped off from the scam sites, I didn't wanna waste my money. Well after all the A50 was gone, I got the oppurtunity to buy some winstrol tablets. I had been researching and decided that since it couldn't convert to estrogen, it couldn't hurt me. So I began to take The 50 mg tabs the same way I did the A50. One per day on weekdays, and half on sat and sun. I ran it this way until it was gone.

After it was all gone I just kept lifting and eating and maintained a suprising chunk of good muscle (little less than ten lbs I'd say), and the nipple pain and swelling went away on it's own. Remember, I did NO PCT here for any of this! I just guessed that since it was a short cycle my estrogen levels tapered off back to normal, and since I couldn't get ahold of anything and everything seemed okay, I wrote it off.

This all began about last December, and ended around February. Kept lifting as normal and then about June of this year, my buddy had some more Winstrol for sale. Same 50mg tabs. I thought of what I saw from it the first time, an decided to buy it again. Same story here, 50mg on weekdays and half a pill on each day of the weekend. I ran it this way until I was out (sorry for the repetitiveness). It hardened up the muscles and I gained about 3lbs of more quality muscle.

No sides to speak of. Fast forward to now and all I've had since then was milk thistle about three or four days a week to try and recover the liver even though all cycles were relatively short (little under four weeks). Two days ago the same buddy had come across more A50. This was all he had. Remembering the nipples and acne, I reluctantly purchased some more. This was only because I broke my hand in July and couldn't lift much at all. Figuring it wouldn't hurt to get a little jump start couldnt hurt.

This is where it gets a bit weird...
About a week before he called with the A50, my friends sister gave me some HCG. Before you ask, she had a weight problem and the doctor gave her pre mixed syringes with 40 cc's apiece in them. She used one and didn't like them and had planned to throw them away. Reverting back to what I had read, I immediately told her not to, and talked her into giving them to me.

I didnt even know what the hell I was gonna do with em, so i just stuck em in the fridge and began doing more research on HCG. Few days later, guy shows up with some A50 (scarily convenient huh?). So I read more on here about using HCG while ON CYCLE to prevent such a hard crash in HPTA levels. The plan was to do 10cc's per week, with the injection coming every Monday. With this I planned to do two weeks of A50 at one tab a day for 14 straight days. Then take ten days off and do 12 more (again, a tip I read here, as it could prevent a complete shutdown of the HPTA thus helping with a crash). Even though I never felt as if i crashed too hard on my previous short cycles, I figured this couldnt hurt anything.

Now I know for a fact that the HCG was real, because it still had the scrip info on the syringe baggie, plus the Doctors office t was from was about ten miles from my house. The A50 also "seemed" legit because it looked exactly like what I had last December. Now as I said before, this is the end of day two. I took ten cc's into my belly fat yesterday evening, and a tab that morning. I also had my tab at the same time this morning. It's now 11:40pm and I swear I'm going crazy.... Because my nipples already look a little puffy. When I push on the left one, it gives a little pain. Now as I've already said, Anadrol was all the guy had. No Nolva, no Clomid.. Nothing.

So here's where I need help. Am I nuts!? Can Gyno set in this quickly? I've read everything on HCG I could find and don't see anything that sticks out about causing this. Could the A50 have done it that fast?? Is there anything over the counter even remotely good enough to counteract this? I am 99.9 percent certain that it wasn't this fast last time. Is there any way I Had estrogen still dormant in my body and this just flared it right back up?? The stuff I read doesn't give me a solid enough answer (probly because nobody has ever done any stupid shit like this before.) I was aware that most people won't start any gear without the proper backup equipment, but based on my previous (albeit very stupid) experience, i didn't think I'd run into any trouble.

So please help me here fellas. Should I stop the A50 altogether? Am I batshit crazy? Or can I combat it with over the counter estrogen blockers? Any and all info is appreciated, but if anyone has had a Somewhat similar experience, I'd love to hear from you because I'm about to pull my friggin' hair out.

By the way guys, nice to meet you all. And I know I'm gonna get bitched at for being a total jackass who makes decisions despite knowing what could happen, so try not to kick me too hard while I'm down. And please make haste before I end up squeezing juice outta my bitch tits :frowning:


#2

For one thing I did not read the whole thing because well.......DAMN thats a lot of writing.I saw that you mentioned no pct, hcg, and didnt see anything about using an AI when using anadrol. I think you need to get some nova and AI and some blood work.
Other members might have more info and you should know that your kinda retarded for not doing a pct and no AI. My 2cents


#3

tl:dr


#4

Cliffs:
-Did cycle of androl, no PCT, had some high E issues
-Ran two cycles of winny (not sure why this is relevant)
-Was given some hcg (he didn't bother to state the concentration, just the amount) and decided HEY WHY NOT?
-Got some more androl and decided HEY WHY NOT? despite his previous issues
-Now has gyno

Go to a reserach chem site and get some nolva or clomid and don't be a dumbass next time you want to do gear...


#5

Yeah I know. Too long. Sorry guys, just figured it would help if you knew everything so that you could account for any variables. The potency of the HCG wasn't listed on the scrip info. As far as the research chemicals go, I've been to a few sites. I won't say which because I'm not sure about the rules on that, but to tell the truth, I couldn't understand shit on there. I tried to make since of it all but it was like reading Japanese. Any thoughts?


#6

Well I sucked it up and read some more. What I'm seeing is Letrozole, Anastrozole (arimidex right?) and Exemastane (Aromasin). Now these are all aromatase inhibitors, which won't work with anadrol right? Then I also see clomifen citrate ad tamoxifen citrate which are clomid and nolva.

Stop me here if I'm wrong. Now in the site they advertise It coming in the form of "20mg/ml 60ml container". That's for the tamoxifen. The clomid says 25mg/ml 60ml. So can somebody put that in enlist for me? Obviously this shit don't come in tabs an that's where I get a bit lost.


#7

"20mg/ml 60ml container" each ML is 20mg, so if you take out 1 mg you will get 20mg, just think about it. And it is in a solution so you need a dropper or syringe to get it out.


#8

Anyone have any experience with this? Is it effective this way? Should it be ran while on cycle? I ask that because I read somewhere a while back about how the SERM can be ineffective if too much of the steroid is still in the body.

Either that or I read some bullshit somewhere. I'll try and find that again because IIRC the page had a schedule on when to take the SERM depending on what gear you were using.


#9

Bump please. Anyone else got any info on this?


#10

There are stickies you need to read. This all stuff you should know before starting a cycle. No one here is going to spoon feed you so I suggest you read the stickies and do some google searches.


#11

That's the thing cock.. I HAVE BEEN READING. I've gotten the big picture, now I need the minute details from those who actually have experience. I've read those stickies until I was blue in the face. I continue to get fucked up information from people who post on other forums. They don't have facts straight and they post false info. That's why I chose TN. You guys know what your doing.

But Ill say this, realizing I screwed up, and that I cannot fix this problem for lack of a source or solid info. I'm not gonna eat another tab of this sh**. It ain't worth all the trouble for a few extra pounds of some water weight. Gyno is no joke, holes in the liver are no joke, an my lipid profile would probly be in the tank. Screw it. You fellas feel free to send a PM if you can read between the lines.


#12

A SERM should have a pretty much immediate effect since it is blocking the estrogen receptors themselves. AI's take a bit longer (and should be used proactively instead of reactively) since they simply block future estrogen production, and do not affect estrogen already present in the system. Your body has to process and excrete it.


#13

Thanks for the info Reidnez. Appreciate it alot.


#14

you are fucking stupid and shouldnt be cycling

toremifene is the best PCT drug available ATM, better than nolvadex or clomid i suggest you get some of that
week 1: 120mg
weeks 2-3: 90mg
week 4: 30mg

then wait 1-2 months and get a hormone panel to see if you are recovered

in the future you should never do a cycle without a test base i am surprised you did not get sex problems with your cycle. also stay away from exotic drugs like HCG because they can actually do irreversible damage to the testicles if they are not used correctly.


#15

lulz..wut??

HCG is perfectly fine (and recommended!!!) if used at TRT doses of 250 iu 2-3x/week. I recommend everyone who plans to do multiple cycles to include it in their protocol.


#16

You will still get shut down because of the massive amount of exogenous androgens suppressing the HPTA. The signal gets suppressed. It's like trying to put out a house fire with a garden hose.


#17

Not really...the HPTA does get suppressed, but the extra androgens do not compete for action against the HCG--the HCG just mimics the LH signal that is getting shutdown naturally...Therefore, while its true your HPTA is shut down, the 'T' part of that equation (testicles) do not...They are able to be fully maintained with the hcg, and this is good not only for maintaining your own testosterone production but also testicular pregneonlone output...


#18

See what I mean? Everyones got something different to say, and then ya bitch at new guys for not having correct info. But I digress, I flushed all that shit. Nothing but chicken and pintos from now on. I'll let you guys handle the heavy shit.


#19

Okay have fun with that but going cold turkey isn't going to get rid of your gyno and you may or may not ever recover from your cycle to natural levels without PCT. Your problems started when you did not use PCT. Buy some toremifene and run the PCT the way I described and it should take care of your gyno and return you back to normal levels.

Now there is no question that you should not have used HCG. HCG is for long cycles, you were doing 4 week cycles of anadrol. Really all you need is a SERM, like toremifene, or an AI to take care of your problems on cycle, like exemestane. The thing is, since you were using HCG you may have fucked yourself up by using huge doses which can desensitize the testicles and create a negative feedback loop (from your post it sounds like you were shooting 10cc at one time? Wtf?). Other people love HCG but I am not crazy about it due to the potential to screw yourself up further if you use it wrong (and a lot of the advice about how to use it floating around on the internet is fucking stupid).


#20

I understand what youre saying but your fears are misplaced.

It is very hard to use hCG 'wrong' if you understand how it works and put the due diligence into research. It is a very benign drug in the grand scheme of things.

Id venture to say that internet advice on MOST things (anything, not just drugs) is fucking stupid. That doesnt say anything about the potential danger of a particular drug.

I could your post making more sense if you replaced hCG with insulin but even then, all it takes is a slightly above basic education to stay very safe while using these drugs.