Alright, I think I willl maybe give my body a few weeks before I decide about HCG. I’m going to spend some more time reading about ai, and I hope I dont need it. but if I do, I will do as you guys havce suggested and use the bare minimum. My Estrogen was slightly higher then normal before TRT so im not sure how the 200mg of test a week will effect that.
Ya no clue. Nothing wrong with taking an ai if needed but there are just many ways to avoid it.
You really need to find a good trt doc. Not an endo or urologist who dabbles in it.
Listen to Systemlord on this one. He opened my eyes to what I am just now realizing was most likely my main problem. 1 big shot a week (later switched to 2) and later adding a 2 big shots of HCG in between. Only after boosting my T way too high, I added Anastrazol at 1mg 2-3x a week - another thing I am realizing was too high a dose. Basically the timing and dosing just had my levels skyrocket to roughly 1400 (before AI’s) then come tumbling back down again. Next run I’ll try 3-4 x per week injections sub q, tiny biy of AI and HCG.
Of course everyone reacts differently and it might take a little time to adjust your perfect dose,but if I can save you from having a roller coaster ride of hormone flux and shitty demeanor then I will.
Start with less, you can always bump up dosing as needed.
I personally liked HCG. It had no bad side affects for (for example I despise Chlomid) and as some others have suggested you can use less Cyp since your balls wake up and start pumping out some juice of their own. My levels shot up another 200-300 pts when I started HCG.
HCG Pro’s for me:
Simply aesthetic - eventually you end up with a shriveled sack on Cyp and it looks odd.
Mental - ejaculate dwindling down to a tiny drop just fucked with my head.
Some is comfort - My balls would pop up into me when I sat down funny or did squats, it was a disturbing feeling, not painful but just very unnatural feeling.
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I would dial yourself in on your TRT protocol 1st and add HCG at a later date, otherwise there will be too many moving parts to analyze.
Sometimes HCG is more trouble than it’s worth.
Thanks for all of your help! Everyone has been so helpful here and it means a lot. I’m still undecided, but If I do decide to take HCG how would you recommend adding it in if I’m taking my test Sunday morning and Wednesday night?
That’s probably the best plan of action. I apologize for all the question, but I do appreciate you, and everyone taking the time to educate me. Since my SHBG was high to start, is me taking two doses of 100mg each, Sunday morning and Wednesday night ok? Or would you recommend EOD or something different? And if I add HCG a few months later, that wouldn’t be too late for fertility or anything like that, right?
Yah glad you said that. I hate saying don’t use it just becusse I had a bad experience.
Btw my boys barely shrunk.
How long did it take to have these issues with them going up and in! I can’t imagine ever dealing with that. What’s the Minimal amount you can take to keep them healthy?
I think for most guys it’ll take several months for them to start to shrink. At least it did for me. And when they do, its not like overnight but I just know I started to feel my sack tighten up and the testes themselves were noticeably a little smaller and my ejaculate was becoming thick and clumpy (sorry for the graphic description fellas, but I think it may help our friend out)
When to take it? Well…I should probably let someone else answer that. Though HCG worked well for me, I am learning more now AFTER my initial run with a TRT Dr. so I might not be the best at asking dosing schedule and so forth. I want to lean towards small doses of HCG at the start so as not to get atrophy at all. I do think its easier to maintain them than to regain them, esp since you’re on the T all year all the time. If you’re running a cycle lots of guys initiate HCG the last few weeks of their cycle until their last shot wears off to keep their levels up.
In full disclosure - I used HCG the last few weeks of a modest Test only cycle I did a few years back and did 1000iu 3 x a week, followed by 500iu EOD and an AI. That was me doing basic recovery and my testes blew back up to their previous size in about 2-2.5 weeks. The immediate boost was within day, I mean you’ll feel stuff “waking up” for lack of a better term.
The last time I tried HCG was with the TRT Dr. and I had a roller coaster (not because of the HCG, but because he wasn’t a good Doc) So I had to request HCG, then request AI, then start rebalancing my levels, it was just a show so I wouldn’t be doing you any favors to detail that schedule, it was fcked from start to finish. .
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By and large it strikes me that the most sane approach is to work with one med at a time and track labs and anecdotal data carefully.
So start with the T (alone) using a sensible dosing protocol (i.e. twice weekly) and analyze the need for AI via labs and effects at regular intervals (4-6 weeks in, again 10-12 weeks etc.).
At your dosage, AI may prove totally unnecessary. But if it is, start small and slow (i.e. 0.125 mg or 0.25 mg 1 x weekly and go from there). 3 mg of anastrozole a week is crazy.
I also agree that absent a firm rationale, the HCG is unneeded as well.
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Here’s more ai nonzense. Rarely is ai needed. Stop feeding inaccurate information to members. What an ai going to do for him?
What’s blocking estrogen going to do ?
What range does one need an ai? I’m
Probably 50+ Do I need an ai?
Well I’ve never taken one.
I agree. That’s why I think AI is only applicable when it’s proven by labs. And even THEN micro dosing.
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Labs don’t prove anything. . Lab ranges men’s shit. If we followed free t lab ranges half the folks out there would never feel better or optimized because “it’s above range”. Yet a few years ago that fees t range was much higher.
Estrogen is based on a sick population of men and not based on what healthy is.
Estrogen does not cause the symptoms folks think it does. Block estrogen and expect more problems.
I’m listening.
So for the layperson who is doing TRT or cycles, where does one establish baseline? Feeling better and optimized is obviously subjective, when - if ever - does Estrogen become an issue to manage?
Lab ranges may not mean much, but don’t they give important reference points whether on or off, before or after?
I presume your feelings around antiestrogens like Nolva are the same?
Lab ranges are based on two tings that don’t really apply effectively to us. The ranges come from lab results, which mostly are going to be from people with a health problem, so they’re a little skewed. The other thing is, they are based on endogynous T. Your E2 isn’t the same on exogynous, it just isn’t dealt with the same no matter how “Bio-equivalent” it may be. Higher E2 while on exogynous is going to be normal and unavoidable, IMO, for most of us. It also poses no apparent issue for most guys, and it tends to be joint protective. Is it fair to say no one ever needs an AI? Absolutes just get you into trouble. Every body is different, and who knows really what effect any of this will have on a given individual.
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I don’t know anything about cycling. This is all about therapy here. Guys with low t who need trt.
You raise your free t until symptom resolution. It’s when estrogen is too low is when folks have majority of their issues.
An obese person with extra fat will probably aromotaze more and therefore the balance of free t to estrogen is off kilter and they may or may not experience symptoms. Best way to combat this is by trying to raise free t a bit more. Instead of the age old “oh my god my estrogens to high let me take an ai or lower my dose”.
I know this is hard to understand Because all everyone has ever talked about is estrogen.
The more you research estrogen, the more it becomes clear we have been worried about nothing.
New guys on trt have to understand that the body is changing and adapting to the new hormone influx . Add an aI this early in the game and no wonder folks have issues, and say “I take an ai if I cry at a movie” or “when my dick isn’t working I take an ai”. The problem is they never allowed the body to adapt. Instead they keep it in forever limbo with hormones. Sometimes less , sometimes more: or always less. The moment estrogen increase they have symptoms.ofcourse they will. They never allowed the body the ability to adapt to normal estrogen levels. Instead they artificially lower the levels because the body is incapable of finding homeostasis. Go figure the logic in that. We do not block any other bodily functions except for estrogen on trt.
If they could find the balls to let the therapy play out over the course of 3-4 months they would realize what most do. That the body is more than capable in deciding how much estrogen it needs. Including DHT.
There are so many docs and patients over at our Facebook group and the majority of patients, and every doctor and expert has made it clear that estrogen is our friend. For multitudes Of reasons.
It would be a lengthy and long post if I attempted to list references and such.
The best thing you can do is realize who dr.rouzier is and watch his videos on estrogen. Go find dr Keith nichols and watch his.
I had multiple well known docs state the following.
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The only patients that complain of estrogen symptoms are those who frequent forum boards and subscribe to the ways of bro science.
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They also stated that it’s interesting how patients who have never looked online or heard about Trt never have estrogen related symptoms. They don’t complain or ask for ai. They don’t worry about water retention and nipple sensitivity.
It makes sense. why else are folks worried about this hormone and not about DHT or free t? Think about it , which well known trt doc out there says to care about e2? Not run of the mill clinics . Actual trt specialists who research and provide education to the public. The actual experts.
Even dr. Saya who prescribes ai says the majority do not need ai. He Simply doses and says as needed because they expect it. So that’s his market.
Doctors who disagree and do not get along can still agree that estrogen is ournfeiend and it’s very unhealthy to block or manage estrogen.
Peace of mind when we realize these docs are experts and they themselevs stopped taking ai after much thought.
If you are going to worry about estrogen I ask that you equally research the benefits. Compare man and woman’s body. We are exactly the same except for reproductive systems. Woman need estrogen for bone, heart, skin, blood , brain health. We have the same bone; skin, blood brain as they do / obviously we need the same.
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Nobody will need an ai is a blanket statement correct. I just think it’s not the practice followed. The only time an ai is needed is when one has severe nipple pain, temporarily while a man loses extra fat or gyno. Even with gyno you can control it with high free t; and raising other hormones.
The problem is saying “lab range is high”… “here take an ai” in the absence of symptoms. And then symptoms that usually have nothing to do with estrogen levels, but instead hormones.
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I thought I had high estrogen for the longest time and took AI’s and couldn’t figure why it never brought anything but suffering, it was because estrogen wasn’t my problem, my problem was abnormally low iron and potassium.
Your symptoms can be caused by many different things like electrolyte imbalances, adrenal problems and/or low high cortisol.
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Great read, thanks.
As a high SHBG sufferer myself I know the difference in working that issue vs. the totality of testosterone or estrogen has made a big difference.
It’s clear that not only do patients need to be better educated, the docs do too. My first TRT MD was prescribing about 2 mg / week anastrozole (0.5 mg EOD). Fortunately I was read enough TK know that wasn’t right and didn’t go down the path that way.