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help from girls and guys in the know

ok there is this girl that i have been friends with for about 6 months. when we first met she had just broke up with her boyfriend of about 3 years. it was her first love and she was pretty shook up over it. since that time we have talked at the gym where i work off and on, we flirt and joke around with each other for an hour sometimes. i always wanted to ask her out, finally i got the guts to do so and she was flattered but still felt uncomfortable because of her ex. well theyve been broken up for half a year now and she still will not go out with me. i am pretty positive that it isnt me, we flirt, she told me it wasnt me, and she also said that she wont go out with anyone. the problem that i have is that this is the kind of girl that i could see myself marrying in the future. i really like a lot of things about her. might i add, where im from there isnt much to choose from. i would never disrespect or hurt her. in my opinion she wont go out with me for two reasons. 1 because she is still trippin on her ex. and 2 because she has the impression that i am a player because im a trainer. that is totally not true i am not at all a player. in fact i am about a year out of an 8 year long relationship. is there anyway i can make things work with her or should i just leave it alone? should i try to do something outrageous to show her how i really feel about her or will that be a waste of time? remember she is the kind of girl that i could spend the rest of my T-life with. thanks

I’ve seen this shit before. If this chick is hung up on some dude she has not been with for six months then you are wasting your time. In my opinion she still has feelings for the other guy, and as such, you will go nowhere emotionally with her. She will see to this. Now it is possible to sleep with her but I doubt a relationship would develop until she is ready. It dosent matter how nice you are to her. In my opinion the more you persue her, the more your goal will elude you. Stupid huh?

Dude, that sucks. Sorry to hear you’re hung up on a chick that’s not emotionally available to you. I have to agree with MDLP in that the ball is in her court. She has to be ready for the emotional risk of a relationship - and that’s not something you can rush. If you try you’ll just end up being the rebound guy and any relationship will be doomed to failure.

Were I you, I’d sit her down for a little chat. Lay out before her: A) You guys have many similar interests and a good basis for friendship; B) You have expressed interest in dating but was declined due to her emotional unavailability (be sure to tactfully point this part out - it shows YOU are emotionally ready and willing but respect that she is in a different place in life); C) You want to respect her needs and not crowd her or overstep the boundries of good taste and as such, will be cordial and friendly until such at time as she decides to ask you out or persue you in any way. And should she decide against those things, that’s fine too.

In doing this you have been forthright, honest, sincere and respectful of her issues. What woman could help but dig that?

MP–based on what you have said I can conclude only one thing: she will not go out with you because you are acting like an AFC (average frustrated chump). Before I move on to providing some advice, let me say that your chances of actually getting her are very low now. Once a female puts you in LJBFs (let’s just be friends) land, your chances of getting back onto her “romance” list are next to nothing. To turn this around, you will need to besiege her as if she is a fortress: with a clear plan and rigorous discipline. You should start reading “The 48 Laws of Power” (read the chapter on seduction) and go to www.fastseduction.com; this is a site by pickup artists (PUA) and aspiring PUAs can learn allot. You may not want to be a full fledged PUA but you can certainly learn much concerning the opening game from PUAs. What you do after you have won a female is entirely up to you. However, I will share some general rules with you–if nothing else but future use. Rule #1: You should never ask a girl to go out with you. That is called supplicating. When you supplicate you abdicate all power and mystery. Women are turned off by this. They want a challenge; they want intrigue. The moment you ask them to “go out” our for their number, you become a boring supplicating pussy and you will only make the situation worse by continuing such behavior. Don’t supplicate. Rather structure opportunities for her to respond in a way in which she commits herself. Example: after you have been talking with a hot babe for a bit, let her know that you have things to do and you can’t stay and chat (remember, the rule from the movie “The Tao of Steve”–be excellent and be gone. Scarcity raises value!). As you proceed to leave, nonchalantly say something like, “I have really enjoyed talking with you, how do you suggest that we continue this?” This way, you do not supplicate and you present her with a challenge. If she is interested, she will give you the magic digits or email or whatever is needed to hook up with her. One of your problems is your history of an 8 year relationship–the rules of a long-term relationship are vastly different than the rules of meeting/attracting the opposite sex. You must realize this now. If you try to relate to her on those other rules, you will seal your own fate and you will quickly drive her away. Rule#2: Give her mixed signals. Women find this confusing and fascinating. The next time you see her, act a bit disinterested. When she talks look past her and allow yourself to be distracted. Say things like “what was that?” as if you didn’t hear her since you were focused on something else. Also, make a point of it to chat up some other, less attractive, female in the vicinity. She will begin to think things like, “is she more attractive than me?,” “Why isn’t he over here giving me attention?” Then, say the next time your in the gym, find a beautiful women in the place and chat her up. Why? Because women are attracted to men that other women–especially beautiful ones–find attractive. They have a natural competitive streak that is triggered when they see you chatting with other women–especially if those women are more attractive than they are! Never be predictable to her; vary the ways in which your relate to her. She will not yield to you because she does not respect you. You have not “won” her over. Rule#3: Be sexual: I’m not saying you should be crude or lack class. Rather, make sexually ambiguous (but suggestive) comments. Use your eyes, your lips, your body language and–this is especially important–the tone of your voice (keep it deep, slow and somewhat melodic–imagine that you are a suave seducer and then talk like one). Keep steady eye contact with her. When something sexual or quasi-sexual pops up in conversation (and you should make sure that it does), make her glance away–don’t allow yourself to do this. Agent 007 is sexual but does not come across like a pervert. Women are naturally attracted to sexy men. Like most men since you find her very attractive; thus, your feeling tranced out when your around her and a bit nervous (we all go through this bro), but you can’t allow that to come through in your interaction with her. Or allow it to determine how you relate to her. That’s being reactive not proactive; you need to proact based on proven principles and laws of attraction. You have to project an alpha male image. Your verbal and unspoken communication has to be smooth and confident (but not to the point of being artificially polished). Women love a man who knows what he wants and knows how to get it. They naturally respond to a man who takes control. They like a man with class and balls–the balls to not be apologetic for your desires as a man. You said you had to work up the guts to ask her out. Join the club. And women are extremely perceptive and intuitive creatures; they pick up on this more readily than you can ever imagine. But having said that, remember that even if you are a bit nervous around them, most women don’t mind this so much (in fact they often are so themselves); what they are watching for is how you act in the context of being nervous. Can you put the situation at ease? Can you make put her in a good & positive state in spite of initial nervousness? Can you be the creator of intriguing vibes? That’s what she is after. That is why those dreaded moments of silence in the first few minutes of meeting a girl are pregnant with disaster. Avoid them. Also, learn how to capture and lead women’s imagination. As human beings, we make decisions mostly because of the mental/emotional state we are in. If you can get her to feel a certain way, you can get her to behave a certain way. Women act basically in accordance with their emotional/intuitive side. Ok, these are just a few rules. You really need to do some homework on this sort of thing. Check out www.fastseduction.com. There are some PUA there that have nearly a 70% close rate. You can learn tons by lurking there and searching the online archives. Now, let me address your overall attitude. You are already exhibiting the fact that you have a bad case of “one-itis.” That is, you think she is “the one” for you. Nothing will kill your chances of being with her more than this attitude. It reduces you to a groveling pathetic chump. You need to go out and date 5 other women that are hotter than she to cure yourself. Don’t ever allow yourself to be so tranced out and overly invested in one female like this. This betrays that you don’t have a good sense of what is out there and available to you. It also indicates that you have indeed been in a long term relationship You are placing far to much value on this girl. You have flirted with her some at the gym and you have come to the conclusion that you may well spend the rest of your life with her. Whoa!! One of the reasons she is not going out with you is because she senses this in you! Also, don’t buy her line about not going out with you because of her ex. This is bullshit plain and simple. Women lie and fabricate just as much as men. In fact, they are even more deceptive–especially at the “gaming” stage of the relationship. You can bet she is giving it up to someone else that has gamed her appropriately. Let me say this: a women is incredibly cunning when it comes to the game. Men are no match for them. A women is equipped with much more effective “technology” when it comes to this subject. Nature has equipped her so (whether by way of a divine creator or evolution–or both since the two are not mutually exclusive). But, men, by allowing a personal paradigm shit and by following some relatively simple rules and principles, can use this to his advantage and actually come out ahead in the game. This girl is pimping you for attention. She leads you on in order that you will continue to give her self-esteem a boost each time she sees you but she doesn’t plan to hook up with you. She knows she already has you. Why need she invest any further? Her basic emotional needs are being met by you–for free! She will pimp you (and others like you) for the emotional fix while at the same time probably continuing to bang the ex (or some other booty call) every other night. The fact that you are flirting with her is a good sign and does seem to indicate that you have some opening game. But you really need to have a paradigm shift when it comes to the whole one-itis thing. Also, you are employing the supplicating model of long term relationships to think about and determine your pickup (i.e., your meeting/attracting the opposite sex) method and behavior.

~karma~ now i know how you got your name. You must have some wicked good Karma man!!!

MP - i’d go with what Karma said. he honest, senser, and mature.


christ, i see you have done your research on this topic. thanks for the advice. i think my life has been changed forever.

Thank you for the kind words. Different folks are going to have different takes on things - take James, for example. I just spent a few minutes perusing his link and while on one hand, I agree with A LOT of what was there, I also have issues with the near-inherent deceptiveness of it (the website, not James). I completely agree that men give up their power to women and become pussies themselves just to get some pussy. Flip side is that women give up their power to men once in relationships. (Generalization) I have done/seen both and have learned from it. IMO, both sexes need to leave PC bullshit behind, be honest with themselves (the hardest thing for most folks) and then be honest with others.

Life is happiest when lived on your own terms.

Sounds like the perfect girl to nail and go. She won’t hound you because she still hung up on the other guy. Here’s what you do go out as friends, and let her yap about the other guy. Then make a sympathetic move, nail her, and run like hell! Then she will have more baggage for the next sap that gets stuck with her and you’ll have another notch on the old belt.(chuckle).

Good stuff.

Your situation sucks. Sorry to hear about it. I’ve been in your shoes before. You have to let it go, for now. Just be her friend, you can’t force things. But don’t be afraid to see other girls either. She still has feeling for her ex, no doubt. You don’t want to get involved with her, and have her leave you to get back with her ex when he realizes he’s fucked up and wants her back. Cause she’ll probably take him back and kick you to the curb. Its happened to me, and its happened to plenty of my freinds. Good luck.

Master P, do exactly what Karma said. Talk to her about. Be open about how you feel. Don’t play these stupid games everyone tells you to do. Those games are lame, and any self-respecting girl can see right though the crap.

While there was some truth to James' incredibly long-winded post, I think you'd be better off just talking to her. Keep us updated!

I don’t usually post on threads like this one, but I have to say that James has done a masterful job of outlining what 99% of all guys (especially younger guys) need to know to deal with women effectively and make themselves happier.

I got interested in the “fastseduction”/Ross Jefferies approach a while back and researched it a little. Just for kicks, I tried it out once. The result? I scored a smokin’ Latina lady - and it was easy. We met at a bar, I talked to her for about an hour, then left. (Thus creating the “Is he unavailable?” question in her mind.) Our next “date” she came over for dinner and ended up staying the night. Boom. Just like that. I couldn’t believe it.

I think that when people see the Jefferies approach a lot of them tend to think that it’s simply a tool for laying a lot of women. And granted, if you want to use it that way you can. But here’s the catch: Guys generally want to sleep with a lot of women because under normal circumstances they can’t. Once that “can’t” impediment is removed (and with a 70% close rate -hell, even a 50% close rate - it is), there’s a real paradigm shift that happens. You become much more relaxed and less worried about “scoring”. Perhaps paradoxically, that makes you a better boyfriend. Just like any other tool, it’s a GOOD thing - in the right hands.

I never had any particular problems with women before I “studied up”, but there were a lot of times in my younger days when I would turn myself inside out (like it sounds like master-p is doing here) over some chick. James is right: she may be a very nice woman, and she and master-p may be very well-suited for each other…but there are ALWAYS other fish in the sea.

MP, It’s great to hear that you found this helpful. The tools (skills, techniques, attitudes) needed for consistently effective PU are neither good or bad, to my way of thinking, they become good or bad when used in a right or wrong way. Granted many PUAs employ these skills in a ruthless and extremely selfish way. To the whole issue of deception, I’d like to say that I think there is a healthy form of this. That is why I’m comfortable using the term “game” to describe the initial or beginning stages of meeting/attracting the opposite sex. As is the case with nearly all games, each participant has an agenda and a strategy (for obtaining the desired goal) and that strategy is kept from view. All games, in this sense, are “deceptive.” But this is accepted as part and parcel of the game–it comes with the territory. To play poker, for instance, with your hand on display for all to see, would defeat the whole purpose of the game. I think both men and women desire this sort of innocuous “deceptive” gaming in the process of meeting/attracting. Both, in fact, do practice deception in this encounter. I think this is a feature of us that is basic to our humanity and I don’t ever see this as changing or going away. The question then becomes a matter of playing the game well and playing it with dignity and justice. This may shock many, but I truly believe that it is predominately females that thrive on this sort of thing. Most men only become wise to it after having experienced it. Women always have and probably always will be catish, cunning and wily when it comes to playing the game. Women are much more complex and are the ultimate warriors of the mind game–of mental strategies and ploys. They have to be, nature (and culture has followed suit) has so placed them in a position that they must be. I don’t think this is bad and I am not deploring it. It is just the way the social world works today–it is simply the landscape of gender relations (when meeting/attracting) at this point in human history. Men need to accept this, educate themselves, and adjust their strategies accordingly. But, unfortunately, many young men–especially beginning with generation X–didn’t or don’t have a father figure that was present in order to teach them the man’s side of the game; many young men have been raised by mothers who lectured them incessantly about how to “treat a girl right.” But this consul, though well intended, is typically one sided far too narrow in perspective; it most often reflects the way a women should be treated once the relationship has grown to a much more mature stage. The result has been a bunch of un-tooled pussies that have an unspoken, and perhaps pre-conscious, inferiority complex rooted simply in their basic perception of the male gender. Presently pop culture perpetuates this at nearly every turn–especially on the tube. Try to think of a commercial on TV that does not portray a male as bumbling, simpleminded, clueless, emotionally vacant, childish, selfish, fiendish, etc. If not this then he’s balding, pudgy, unfashionable, dorkish or slothful. When is the last time you were bombarded with a steady diet of commercials that project a god-like ideal of masculinity in the same manner that females are often portrayed. We save such ideals for our male celebrities but deny it to the men who are actually out there working hard, raising a family and braving the storms of life (many making minimum wage or a bit more). It was nice to see that in the wake of 9/11, men (esp. fireman, police, etc.) got some much-needed positive press. What will be the state of our predominately male military (when it comes to combat) in 10-20 years if we keep trending in the wrong direction? So for me, the game is here to stay. Fortunately, unlike most games, it is a win-win game. When both participants play their cards right both usually end up getting what they are after and wanted all along.