T Nation

Help Designing Second Cycle?

Hey guys…
Some stats: I’m 28 years old, 5’8 tall and weigh around 200 lbs…yes I’m planning to leave skinny fat territory soon enough
Ermm…my first cycle was self designed since i hopped on the trt train first cuz my test was 400ish… after which i graduated to a full fledged mass cycle with massive caloric surplus (add 220g brotein and mass gainer shakes with other food) using pharma grade test e and deca - 500 and 300 respectively.
I’d also use AI like arimidex and tamoxifen together to combat e2 sides. Until the whole world stopped in march, this was my cycle and was struggling with mood and anxiety issues due to incorrect dosage titration of AIs.
I’m currently on 500mig test e only cycle for 6 weeks so I can recomp and lose most of the fat.
Currently using :
T3 25 MCG - before empty stomach cardio
1 cap Black Mamba - Ephedrine caffeine tab.
Letrozole 2.5 mg ED(doctor prescribed since high e2)
Tamoxifen 10 E3D.

Macros : 194g p : 194c : 45f
I’m looking at cutting with anavar added to test e or clenbuterol to the stack with Tren e or a recomp(?) With test only?

I’m not sure how the AI dosages are titrated wrt test dose aromatizing and me ending up with low e2 symptoms.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Im going to be blunt here. It sounds like you need to learn a lot more on what to do in the kitchen and likely the gym as well.
You are relying too heavily on the compounds rather then nutrition and training.

Throw the letro in the bin, leave the t3 and anavar in the cupboard, lower your test dose to trt level, lose the excess weight with proper diet and nutrition, then consider a blast after that.

You wont need to worry about e2 until you blast if you follow the above.
From personal experience, i use 0.25mg eod on 600 p/w test and 200 p/w deca.

You have no need to be screwing with tren, t3 or clen.



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This made me laugh out loud for real


Well you’re on your second cycle already, so I think you mean your third. But it matters not because I have the answer: eat better and forget about recomping. It’s not an option for you, so move on.

Stop the 500 test, go back to trt, eat better, and you’ll drop the fat eventually. Then plan a proper cycle to put on the mass you’re looking for. Tren is 600% above your skill level right now. Clen is 542% above it. T3 is 871% above it. Just. Eat. Better. This is the layout you’d get from one of two people, neither of whom you ever want to be. I’m not naming them because it would probably be insulting and the goal is to help you, not make you feel like an idiot.

You didn’t state a bf, but based on your numbers and your layout of things I’m betting it’s no lower than 20% (which is fine if that’s what you want!) and there is zero reason to run any drugs other than your trt in order to cut. All it takes is a good diet and a decent amount of time doing things like LISS, which you should already be doing.


Okay I hear ya
Thanks… Much appreciated

How exactly can I work on improving my work in the gym? As far as diet goes…I eat old school a lá eat pan fried chicken and veggies in olive oil… Then oats or sweet potatoes measured on the scale. Obviously add fats to the mix

Everyone on the forum’s going on about it… He’s certified in men’s health FYI

Glad my misery made someone laugh… Hahaha…

So, I am no expert when it comes to pharma, so take this for what it is worth. I do apologize for the “lol” comment above, but the “self designed” cycle you put above is far out of the “this is my first cycle” realm and so is your second one for that matter. And to bump what the others said above, you should not be doing it. Not because we are mean or you are a rookie or anything else you may assume, but for your own good. Any post here you may come across of “first cyclers” you will see the recommendations are ALWAYS run your first cycle with Test only. And you may ask yourself, 'Well I see sometimes the recommend Anavar too." The answer to this is simple, it is because nobody usually wants to hear Test ONLY and Anavar is not to harsh/advanced. This is so you can know how your body will react and make sure you know what side effects you may encounter from different medications. If you take 5 new medications and get 1 side effect, how will you know which one caused it?

Regardless, to bump again what they are saying above, taking your TRT course (or maybe a little extra) WITH a good workout routine and a set diet plan, WILL yield the best results. Everything else, for where you are at, is pointless and/or not worth the risk. Better health regiment>more medication. Don’t half ass 2 things, whole ass 1 thing.

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I’ll add that clen isn’t a fun or clean drug. And on balance it isn’t that much better than just eating better. If you had to try something in that class (beta-agonists) salbutamol is way, way less harsh and there’s some actual clinical data on dosing and the side effects. Taken with caffeine salbutamol at doses as low as 2mg (so half of a standard 4mg tablet) are more effective for lypolosis than 4mg on its own.


I would have to know what you are doing currently.

I just know that

Would indicate your training and nutrition isnt close to optimal.

Remember, guys training for decades are still working to further optimise their training.

This isnt opitmal.
Add in other meats such as beef and lamb. Eggs. Salads. Rice. If you can handle it, some low fat dairy like yogurt. For example.

The typical ‘chicken & vegies’ or ‘chicken & rice’ diet is surprisingly deficent in a lot of marconutrients.

If your 200 lbs and skinny fat after running nearly a gram of gear then your doing something wrong in the gym or kitchen.
Ill say it again, your relying too heavily on the compounds your using.

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Nah…I’m skinny fat now
Back when I was running 500mig of pharma grade test…I was recomping…my weight would go up and bf percent down…I checked it on the BF analyzer at the gym…this extra weight I put on until after they reopened gyms in my country.
Training history: I was training for a powerlifting competition back then… Hence the deca…which is amazing for my fucked up rotator cuff and knee… I’ve been working out since '13 …was just fat…did a complete 180 w/o gear in losing close to 20 kilos in 3 and a half months. After which I just started bulking, until a year or two later i understood the part of nutrition… So my game was training and diet game was on point earlier this year.
I focus mostly on compounds,… Like a 5x5 of you will. My arms are weak though,
Stats: 295 lb on squats… 185 on bench and 300 on deads all are 1RM

These are wildly inaccurate.

For reference, after 3 years of training i was squatting 420 and deadlifting 500 before i started my first cycle. Not training for powerlifting. I still believe i started too early.

My first cycle of test only 500mg, took me to squat 440x3 and deadlift 530x3. Mainly training for size with heavy compounds at the start of each training session.

Im not trying to sound like a dick here but i still stand by what i have already said.
Diet and training play a huge part.

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Aiite I hear ya… Will work on making said part of my lifting game better than ever.
Thanks for the help… Much appreciated

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About where I started trt. Blasts started with higher lifts by a bit (475 squat, 550 dead, 335 bench). Not everyone is the same though. Some just don’t have the potential for strength. I would say most people start too early though. They think they are maxed out, but this stuff takes time.

I think the biggest advantage to waiting is learning to make gains when they are hard to get. I think one who waits needs less gear on average to meet their goals.

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How much did trt aid in adding weight to the bar? I would imagine there would have been some benefit although nothing major.

I agree. Everyone is different.

I do believe with more appropriate training coupled with decent diet/nutrition most will overcome the walls they believe to be their limits. More so geared towards novice and intermediate lifters.

Most of us started too early on this journey so at the end of the day who the fuck am i to recommend anyone not to start lol. I guess using our own experiences is our best gauge on helping people new to this.

@docwallab thank you for being positive. Its refreshing to see this even though what was said is something you probably didnt want to hear.

Before trt I could squat I think around 450 in wraps, bench about 320 and deadlift 500. My current best numbers are 507 in wraps, 365 bench and 565 deadlift. I am on my second blast at 600 mg/wk with tbol at the end, first was 325 mg/wk with 50 mg var at the end. The current numbers are all after the first blast, and a mix of meet and gym lifts.

How much do these help with the lift for you? Ive heard you can add 5-10% to the bar? Ive never used them before anf just purchased a set myself for the end of this program.

Do you low bar or high bar? I have only ever high bar squat as ive been more geared towards size.

Theoretically i should have been able to squat 475, deadlift 565 and bench 290 after my first cycle. Ive always struggled with bench due to a back injury years ago that causes instability in my left shoulder. I never actually tested my 1rm after my last cycle so these could be bs lol.

Ahahahah…my pleasure Sir… guess sometimes it helps to hear ‘no holds barred’ truth which is what is gonna help me better myself.

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