T Nation

Help a Fat Man Choose a Fat Burning Cycle

Hello all.

I am on the chunky side 20-25% and am about to jump on some gear after time off out of the gym for 12m after new baby.

I know many of you will get super mad at this and tell me off, but dont bother, I have at least 7-8 cycles under my belt over a decade and dont want to hear it, its going ahead.

What I would love to hear is some thoughts on the following two cycles and which would be better to suit the goals and targets of mine, even though some wont agree.

I am at 100kg currently and want to shred 15kg by end of year, 20kg if possible. I am 35.

I have done a number of stacks in the past, the last being over a year ago tren/eq/test 600/750/750 14w. The only compound I havent used in the past is winny and only a couple of times with dbol.

Diet will be intermittent fasting 18hr fast 6 hour feed with 1-2 days per week total fasting days.

I am deciding between the two following cycles;

LONG cycle but more cals;
Tren E 600mg
Test E 600-750mg (to be decided)
EQ 750mg

SHORT cycle
Test P 300mg
Tren A 300mg
Winny 350mg
Dbol 350mg (optional undecided)

PCT all sorted. I get my bloods doen before and after and have a nurse at home for blood pressure which I keep on top of.

I consider the long cycle to be more typical for a bulk. The EQ makes me hungry which is not the best fasting strategy but it puts on quality mass and really boosts the overall cycle. Longer means less calorie deficit per day. Cycle much more expensive.

Cycle 2, winny is liver toxic which is why I havent run it in the past. I dont love orals in general and this would be the oral version. Same with dbol. I havent really used Tren A except for a kickstart a few years back, I have no trouble with tren except the night sweats and insomnia. Short cycle, more severe deficit, quicker results.

After I reach the fat goals back to less radical training from a new baseline.

Constructive comments only thanks.

Noted. If you’re close to 20% thats not terrible IMO but 25% is getting there and I find people usually underestimate their true number.

How tall are you? What kind of frame are we working with? 15kg is aggressive but the anabolics should help stave the muscle wasting in a fast cut scenario. You’re shooting for 5kg/month which I think 3kg is more realistic (1-2lbs a week).

I like the short cycle but without either oral and/or adding Var. Dbol is counter productive to your goal and winny is hell on joints. Var seems like the best oral for your goal.

Honestly? If your goal is a big cut then it’s hard to justify doing #1 or #2 with the oral in it. You should get the results you want with test and tren. I like super low dose dbol when I’m trying to cut because it keeps me feeling good despite being hungry and grumpy. But there’s no need to run it at 50mg/d when cutting. It serves zero purpose, especially if you’re going to be on tren. I think the short cycle makes a lot more sense for your goals. If your diet is dialed in—and it looks like you’ve got that sorted out—there’s no reason to go so long and heavy as #1. Save that for your next bulk.

Id suggest dropping the first 5kg before starting your cycle. If your diet is on point you could lose a pound per week over the next 2 months given that your bf% is up there, without losing a lot of muscle.

From there you could run a low dose test p/tren a cycle over 8-10 weeks and lose 1-1.5 pounds per week.

That should have you pretty close to your goal without having to run high dose or a longer cycle as well as not having to be in a huge cal deficit.

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Guys you are missing the point here… If he can’t make himself do this without steroids, then his mindset won’t take him far… it says a lot about the person and the way I see it he has no willpower which is why he relies on steroids to do the work.

Now back to you, I won’t sugar coat and tell you how it is: first get your butt of the couch and go to the gym and dial in your diet! You are not allowed to get this lazy if you’re truly passionate and no matter what excuses you tell us it won’t change the fact that you always have to work hard to achieve and maintain muscular body.

So man up and gain back as much muscle as you can naturally while dropping bf to atleast 15% and maybe then consider gear.

Respect the steroids and use them properly.

I am of the opinion that he should do blood work to check for Low T. OP is 35, has done 7-8 cycles (which based on his proposed cycle, at least some were heavy for a gym rat), and is probably 25% body fat (when people give a range it is almost always the top or higher).

It can be really hard to lose fat with Low T. It is possible, but generally the body just shrinks and a lot of muscle is lost.

If TRT is needed, it will aid a lot. If it isn’t, then I think losing at least the easy weight first makes sense.


This was pretty much me in the beginning of this year. I was 265 and 25% BF. Test levels came back at around 330 on a scale from 270-920. Started TRT and dropped 25 lbs in 14 weeks. The test WITH very disciplined dieting allowed me to do this.

I am on TRT as well, and tested at 379, and 390 Total Test, and 14 and 10 [10-25ish] for Free Test. I didn’t lose weight that fast, but recomped slower (but got stronger at the same time, so I am okay with it).

TRT works, it isn’t going to make you a IFBB pro or anything (maybe it would if you are Ronnie Coleman as I believe he got his pro card as a natural), but it is a huge advantage over Low T.

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I think its quite the opposite. You are missing the point. He already stated he knows we will be mad and tell him off…

Well its his body and his choice. He was asking for an opinion on 1 or 2 DESPITE this fact. No sense beating a dead horse. We all know this is a bad idea @lukiss96. Nobody is missing the point youngster.


Anyway, why not just do test with some oxandrolone.
You are over complicating shit.

And the most constructive comment would be, you are replacing hard work with exogenous gear. That’s not a great idea but at this point I see you as a heroin addict about to shoot fentanyl.
You may pay for this down the line. Truth is I don’t care what you do, but you should probably reconsider using anabolics right now.

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I didn’t have a choice but to lose that fast, I wanted to compete under 231. I also got a lot stronger during the cut. win-win. I think as long as you eat tons of protein (1.2 g/lb BW) while cutting and just cut carbs, recomp is possible without losing a lot of strength or lean mass.

This may seem like fluff conversation in this thread, but I think it proves a good point that recomp is possible on TRT alone and harsh compounds are not needed so long as you’re willing to be disciplined.

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I would have to look for it but @unreal24278 has posted lots of literature about how Tren and Winny, specifically, is incredibly toxic. I would not recommend it

The Anabolic Doc has a video about Tren and Winny being a bad choice.

You said it perfectly.

@lukiss96 the dudes going to do it anyway. I think at this point it’s more about harm reduction then trying to berate him.

That video was interesting and based off that and some of the comments I will not run winstrol.

And considering that the winny was the only real reason I was considering the shorter esters, I think a tren E test E cycle is the way to go, aiming for less weight loss per week

And as an aside, at the end of the day we all make choices in our lives and I strongly believe that everybody is entitled to make whatever choices they like when it comes to their own bodies.

I do think that people should have a degree of life experience and maturity that allows them the ability to make educated decisions which consider the risks and the rewards, and that posting threads like this is part of that education process. Although I went in already fully aware that many don’t agree with me or the way I choose to manage my health, weight and body I still think it is important for me to be as fully informed as possible before making a choice.

Having been active in forums like this for years I have always found the general mental leaps and bounds and cognitive dissonance amazing though.

If you go consult just about any doctor and tell them you are about to jump on a cycle, they are not going to say well Mr Gym Rat, I see here that you are over 25, only at 13% bodyfat and youve trained for 10 years managing to hit your genetic potential. You can tell me the definitions and differences between a SERM and and AI and a SARM, and therefore you have passed the test and so I hereby give you my endorsement and stand behind your decision to use steroids to improve your physique.

Instead what the doctor will almost always say is that you are making reckless decisions about your health and your life for essentially vanity, and you have no idea how this is going to affect your body in the future. He or she will say you have no clue about what potential negative effects you will experience during the cycle, and no real idea of how your body will adjust during PCT.

The doctor will almost never prescribe you the drugs you want, including PCT drugs which are all off label, and will say that you risk putting compounds into your body where you don’t know the source, you don’t know how accurately they are dosed or what exactly is in them. They will say that you aren’t properly trained in safe injecting techniques and probably don’t have an appropriately sterile place to use and store the drugs.

You will say doc don’t stress, I have studied this for months on forums, I have read scientific journals, I have asked advice, I have a full PCT plan in place, I am going to have bloods done on both sides and I trust the sources from online reviews and the label and others that have used it.

The doctor in most cases will still say it is an absolutely reckless and foolhardy decision and that you are naïve that because you spend 6hrs a day on forums and have read some papers that this accounts for the risk.

And yet on forum after forum members fail to take this contradiction into their thoughts properly, and have established their own set of rules and conditions under which this can be done ‘safely’ gatekeeping these rules, looking down on others in the same communities as if their perception of any given steroid user is any different from how most doctors and the general public looks at them.

The steroids and conditions and methods these users choose is right and safe, but only if all these conditions are met, in which case steroids are bad. I am not disputing the years of community evidence, the presence of doctors on these forums, the articles produced etc but don’t make the mistake of thinking that any regular doctor is going to look at you who has done everything ‘right’ with any less disdain that you look upon me with.

There are many things in life that fk us up and hurt our bodies with (in my opinion) equal risk to our health and wellbeing. I bet many on here smoke, use cannabis, drink, use other recreational drugs. Maybe some hit the hard stuff on a night out, or drop some amphetamines to study or get through work. I bet many stay up too late, or eat too much processed food, or stay stationary or sitting at work too long. I bet more than a few do no cardio or speed while driving on the way to work. Maybe some do extreme sports, or fk around with the ladies too much without wrapping up. All this can and does greatly impact the future of your health.

Point being the amount of people on this, or any other forum, that think their lives are pure enough to crticise others and say that their informed use of illegal drugs is any better than anothers is just fooling themselves. They are fooling themselves into thinking that what they are doing is ok and safe, just because that they conform to the general consensus amongst a biased group of drug users.

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The doc isn’t going to prescribe you because you could sue his ass and take that brand new Benz. Now if you want some oxycontin so he can go ahead and put the pre-order in for that new Tesla you’re in luck. It’s the American way baby


I’ve just recently found that low dose test with some Anavar does wonders for fat loss. Don’t know about Tren because from everything I’ve read/heard/seen it seems like utter misery especially the sleep issues. Fuck that… That said, I have a miserable friend that looks jacked as fuck on it.

Ooooo, I could write a fat essay on this.

Following the opiate epidemic in America prescribing guidelines for painkillers/regulatory practices have become much, much more stringent. These meds (in most states) aren’t doled out like candy in they same fashion of which they once were.

Unfortunately barring access to essential medications has a domino effect if you will. The minority who actually require pain medication to live a normal live now don’t have access to it and/or the dose they require can no longer be prescribed. There are many complications associated with the long term therapeutic use of opiates, and some literature indicates chronic use may lead to more harm than benefit… BUT there are a certain subset of patients who do require round the clock pain management. When you can’t get pain meds legitimately (and you really need them, be it due to chronic pain or dependence) you turn to the street.

At some point the prospect of harm minimisation needs to be taken into account. Enforcing harsh new rules/regulations isn’t always the answer. Pain meds should’ve never been marketed the way they were, but once you’ve created a generation of dependence, you can’t just “take it away” and start punishing people because they’ve become addicted.

IMO the best way to go is to not use trenbolone, it’s “steroids on steroids”. Imagine banging a supermodel/pornstar, but it’s your first time. Or driving a Ferrari after juuuuussstt acquiring a drivers license.

People are entitled to make their own choices, but as per freedom of speech, other people are adept to saying “hey, that’s a bad decision to make”.

The way to get your drugs easily and legally is to go to a website (which I won’t name) where you can view how much of each drug every doc in your area prescribes. If you see a doc prescribing 10x the average for that medication then there’s a good chance he’s down for whatever. It’s as easy as that.

I’d argue the CHRONIC use of trenbolone would kill you faster than chronic use of tobacco (perhaps not alcohol). What many fail to bring into perspective is the nature of use. Anabolic Steroid related toxicity is chronic in nature, subject to cumulative dosing (as is recreational drug use). But with AAS it’s constantly coursing through your blood, inducing systemic damage. Booze, recreational drugs etc are typically taken on an acute basis. You can’t possibly compare taking some speed once in the hopes of getting a better test score to using test/tren over the course of three months. Acutely, recreational drugs are subject to a higher level of toxicity. In terms of chronic detriment induced, unless we are talking full blown addiction I’d garner AAS is more damaging.

From looking at statistical analysis, it appears steroid use elevates heart disease risk to a level comparable with which tobacco use elevates heart disease risk. You are correct in that certain vices aren’t particularly frowned upon (AAS are). This is a byproduct of reinforced societal normalities. Anabolic steroids are frowned upon, drinking, gambling and unhealthy food aren’t.

Trenbolone is seriously toxic shit, no matter how you justify AAS use… there is no getting around the fact that TRENBOLONE is horrendous when taking into account health/longevity.

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