T Nation

Hello, First Cut

Hey guys, Im from New Zealand. weighing 85kg, 21 years of age. Been lifting about a year now properly and im planning on stepping on stage next year. Just started a cut so hopefully within a few months ill be able to see some abs for the first time in my life, then its bulk again till next year. Looking forward to learning from yas. cheers

Bulk Time I hope doesn’t mean eating everything in site. You should be just as methodical with your “bulk” than you should with your cut. Get at it! Good luck, get those abs boii

I think it’s good to get in to a mindset of always cutting whether you are looking to lose or gain weight. I have suffered many bulks gone bad in an attempt to gain clean mass. I think it’s important to accept too that if you are putting on more than two pounds a month then you are just getting fat plain and simple! Obviously this is after the initial weight gain you see due to filling glycogen stores.
Noone gains 24 pounds of muscle in one year!

I have dropped almost eight pounds of fat since the new year and am now slowly increasing calories by 50 a week to get back up to maintenance. One of the cool things about being less than a few hundred calories from maintenance is that so long as your body is properly fed and rested you are ALWAYS going to be
cutting body fat even if technically you are gaining weight!

The degree to which you can gain whilst cutting is limited by how tight your diet is and how hungry you are willing to be. Remember that hunger is a sign of a strong metabolism burning fat and waiting to be fed so you can lay down new muscle.

[quote]bigslickmelter wrote:
I think it’s good to get in to a mindset of always cutting whether you are looking to lose or gain weight. I have suffered many bulks gone bad in an attempt to gain clean mass. I think it’s important to accept too that if you are putting on more than two pounds a month then you are just getting fat plain and simple! Obviously this is after the initial weight gain you see due to filling glycogen stores.
Noone gains 24 pounds of muscle in one year!

I have dropped almost eight pounds of fat since the new year and am now slowly increasing calories by 50 a week to get back up to maintenance. One of the cool things about being less than a few hundred calories from maintenance is that so long as your body is properly fed and rested you are ALWAYS going to be
cutting body fat even if technically you are gaining weight!

The degree to which you can gain whilst cutting is limited by how tight your diet is and how hungry you are willing to be. Remember that hunger is a sign of a strong metabolism burning fat and waiting to be fed so you can lay down new muscle. [/quote]

How does this work?

How can you be gaining weight if your calories are less than what is required to maintain current weight?

[quote]bigslickmelter wrote:
I think it’s important to accept too that if you are putting on more than two pounds a month then you are just getting fat plain and simple! [/quote]

This would be false…unless you are now claiming no human can gain more than this in a month ever.

Your body grows in spurts…and expecting ONLY muscle gain will lead to most people not making much progress.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]bigslickmelter wrote:
I think it’s important to accept too that if you are putting on more than two pounds a month then you are just getting fat plain and simple! [/quote]

This would be false…unless you are now claiming no human can gain more than this in a month ever.

Your body grows in spurts…and expecting ONLY muscle gain will lead to most people not making much progress.

[/quote]

^

Thanks X. You see so many guys terrified of losing their 6 pack but still trying to gain weight. This results in…zero results lol.

Well, Depends if anabolics are used or not. But naturally I agree with BIGSLICK. But that’s just my opinion, do whatever you desire

[quote]Later_Z wrote:
Well, Depends if anabolics are used or not. But naturally I agree with BIGSLICK. But that’s just my opinion, do whatever you desire[/quote]

Even if anabolics are involved, it is literally impossible to gain weight on a caloric deficit. if it takes 1 and 1 to make 2, how could 1 and 1.5 make 2.5?

[quote]ironmanzvw wrote:

[quote]Later_Z wrote:
Well, Depends if anabolics are used or not. But naturally I agree with BIGSLICK. But that’s just my opinion, do whatever you desire[/quote]

Even if anabolics are involved, it is literally impossible to gain weight on a caloric deficit. if it takes 1 and 1 to make 2, how could 1 and 1.5 make 2.5?[/quote]

no it isnt with the aid of anabolics its possible to gain muscle mass while cutting. obviously not in large amounts but still.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]bigslickmelter wrote:
I think it’s important to accept too that if you are putting on more than two pounds a month then you are just getting fat plain and simple! [/quote]

This would be false…unless you are now claiming no human can gain more than this in a month ever.

Your body grows in spurts…and expecting ONLY muscle gain will lead to most people not making much progress.

[/quote]

Do you think you could achieve linear growth, I’m not saying no bumps in the road, but a graph good enough for a line of best fit in a positive direction regarding muscle growth naturally if you control all aspects of your diet? This also includes an intense muscle building program that would illicit a great hypertrophy response given the food to grow.

Controlling diet, for clarification; being specific with calories and macros on a bulk.

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]bigslickmelter wrote:
I think it’s important to accept too that if you are putting on more than two pounds a month then you are just getting fat plain and simple! [/quote]

This would be false…unless you are now claiming no human can gain more than this in a month ever.

Your body grows in spurts…and expecting ONLY muscle gain will lead to most people not making much progress.

[/quote]

Do you think you could achieve linear growth, I’m not saying no bumps in the road, but a graph good enough for a line of best fit in a positive direction regarding muscle growth naturally if you control all aspects of your diet? This also includes an intense muscle building program that would illicit a great hypertrophy response given the food to grow.

Controlling diet, for clarification; being specific with calories and macros on a bulk. [/quote]

How much muscle do you honestly think you’ll grow on a spurt though? I’m betting in real life its more like grams than pounds. You don’t go from gaining nothing to 2-3 lbs in a week. Well unless you’re about 13.

[quote]ESX wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]bigslickmelter wrote:
I think it’s important to accept too that if you are putting on more than two pounds a month then you are just getting fat plain and simple! [/quote]

This would be false…unless you are now claiming no human can gain more than this in a month ever.

Your body grows in spurts…and expecting ONLY muscle gain will lead to most people not making much progress.

[/quote]

Do you think you could achieve linear growth, I’m not saying no bumps in the road, but a graph good enough for a line of best fit in a positive direction regarding muscle growth naturally if you control all aspects of your diet? This also includes an intense muscle building program that would illicit a great hypertrophy response given the food to grow.

Controlling diet, for clarification; being specific with calories and macros on a bulk. [/quote]

How much muscle do you honestly think you’ll grow on a spurt though? I’m betting in real life its more like grams than pounds. You don’t go from gaining nothing to 2-3 lbs in a week. Well unless you’re about 13. [/quote]

I was one of those guys who competed in martial arts and used to have to be in a weight class, so i got used to always being lean and seeing my sexy 6 pack, but now that im not competing any more i decided to say fuck you to my abs and get after my next goal. i started at 181lbs bulking , taking in around 3200-3500 calories and 200-220 g protein a day, 8 weeks later im up 12lbs, and according to body fat measurements i get erryweek, i’ve gained 4 lbs of fat, so 8 lbs of da muscle and glycogen in 8 weeks. eat a dick science.

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:

Do you think you could achieve linear growth, I’m not saying no bumps in the road, but a graph good enough for a line of best fit in a positive direction regarding muscle growth naturally if you control all aspects of your diet? T[/quote]

No. Your body isn’t concerned with how you look…and everyday stress can factor into gains just as much as mindset, workload, or changes in physical activity.

You aren’t a robot. Your body is working on negative feedback mechanisms all playing together like an orchestra. Science doesn’t even have the trombone section completely figured out yet.

Maybe once genetic mapping and a truer understanding of all aspects of muscle growth is understood, then this could occur…but that would be maybe a couple hundred years away.

[quote]ESX wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]bigslickmelter wrote:
I think it’s important to accept too that if you are putting on more than two pounds a month then you are just getting fat plain and simple! [/quote]

This would be false…unless you are now claiming no human can gain more than this in a month ever.

Your body grows in spurts…and expecting ONLY muscle gain will lead to most people not making much progress.

[/quote]

Do you think you could achieve linear growth, I’m not saying no bumps in the road, but a graph good enough for a line of best fit in a positive direction regarding muscle growth naturally if you control all aspects of your diet? This also includes an intense muscle building program that would illicit a great hypertrophy response given the food to grow.

Controlling diet, for clarification; being specific with calories and macros on a bulk. [/quote]

How much muscle do you honestly think you’ll grow on a spurt though? I’m betting in real life its more like grams than pounds. You don’t go from gaining nothing to 2-3 lbs in a week. Well unless you’re about 13. [/quote]

That’s what I’m saying…it’s grams here and there that add up over time. When does anybody gain 3 pounds of muscle one month, none the next, 2 pounds another month…That happens if you don’t eat right and those pounds are mostly fat…

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:

[quote]ESX wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]bigslickmelter wrote:
I think it’s important to accept too that if you are putting on more than two pounds a month then you are just getting fat plain and simple! [/quote]

This would be false…unless you are now claiming no human can gain more than this in a month ever.

Your body grows in spurts…and expecting ONLY muscle gain will lead to most people not making much progress.

[/quote]

Do you think you could achieve linear growth, I’m not saying no bumps in the road, but a graph good enough for a line of best fit in a positive direction regarding muscle growth naturally if you control all aspects of your diet? This also includes an intense muscle building program that would illicit a great hypertrophy response given the food to grow.

Controlling diet, for clarification; being specific with calories and macros on a bulk. [/quote]

How much muscle do you honestly think you’ll grow on a spurt though? I’m betting in real life its more like grams than pounds. You don’t go from gaining nothing to 2-3 lbs in a week. Well unless you’re about 13. [/quote]

That’s what I’m saying…it’s grams here and there that add up over time. When does anybody gain 3 pounds of muscle one month, none the next, 2 pounds another month…That happens if you don’t eat right and those pounds are mostly fat…
[/quote]

Actually it is pretty normal for most people to gain half fat and half muscle. It takes dietary effort and training to really boost that in favor of more muscle…so claiming it can’t happen would be wrong. But claiming it will happen without added fat gain will be less likely.

Your body isn’t limited by these pseudo-blanket limits I keep seeing on the internet. Things are a lot more complicated.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:

[quote]ESX wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]bigslickmelter wrote:
I think it’s important to accept too that if you are putting on more than two pounds a month then you are just getting fat plain and simple! [/quote]

This would be false…unless you are now claiming no human can gain more than this in a month ever.

Your body grows in spurts…and expecting ONLY muscle gain will lead to most people not making much progress.

[/quote]

Do you think you could achieve linear growth, I’m not saying no bumps in the road, but a graph good enough for a line of best fit in a positive direction regarding muscle growth naturally if you control all aspects of your diet? This also includes an intense muscle building program that would illicit a great hypertrophy response given the food to grow.

Controlling diet, for clarification; being specific with calories and macros on a bulk. [/quote]

How much muscle do you honestly think you’ll grow on a spurt though? I’m betting in real life its more like grams than pounds. You don’t go from gaining nothing to 2-3 lbs in a week. Well unless you’re about 13. [/quote]

That’s what I’m saying…it’s grams here and there that add up over time. When does anybody gain 3 pounds of muscle one month, none the next, 2 pounds another month…That happens if you don’t eat right and those pounds are mostly fat…
[/quote]

Actually it is pretty normal for most people to gain half fat and half muscle. It takes dietary effort and training to really boost that in favor of more muscle…so claiming it can’t happen would be wrong. But claiming it will happen without added fat gain will be less likely.

Your body isn’t limited by these pseudo-blanket limits I keep seeing on the internet. Things are a lot more complicated.[/quote]

I’m trying to understand.

You create an anabolic environment for your body (intense lifting, a sound nutrition plan where you know what you’re eating on a day to day basis (cals, macros).

Why would my body one week, gain (and these numbers are just being used for numbers sake, not because it’s something that happened) 1 pound of muscle, and the next 1/4 pound, and the week after 4 pounds?

To my understanding, protein synthesis is a slow process where we are just accumulating small amounts of protein (grams) over and over for years and then that’s what builds the results.

You can also limit fat gain extremely well while gaining muscle if you diet is spot on.


Here is what it boils down to.

Changes are so small and gradual that fluctuations aren’t large. Yes I probably synthesis a slightly different amount of protein each week, but it stays fairly constant.

This is created because they’re are little variables. I eat, sleep, train the same all of the time. My hormone levels are good and have nothing working against them.


So I was really just wanting to understand what you meant by “growing in spurts,” and why you think that that is how it works. Seriously just curious because I see more sense in the accumulation of very small gains over longs periods of time being the producer of most of the results we’ve seen.

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:

I’m trying to understand.

You create an anabolic environment for your body (intense lifting, a sound nutrition plan where you know what you’re eating on a day to day basis (cals, macros).

Why would my body one week, gain (and these numbers are just being used for numbers sake, not because it’s something that happened) 1 pound of muscle, and the next 1/4 pound, and the week after 4 pounds?[/quote]

You are throwing specific numbers at this. That won’t help you understand this because BIOLOGY isn’t calculus.

Have you ever had a death in the family? Have you ever had a week of finals? A bad break up? Orgasmed and nutted all over your girl’s new Prada bag which you told her to move before you jumped on her but she didn’t?

Guess what…all of that shit factors into gains.

[quote]

To my understanding, protein synthesis is a slow process where we are just accumulating small amounts of protein (grams) over and over for years and then that’s what builds the results. [/quote]

This entire mechanism is related by genetics, genes that are the result of thousands of years of development and recombining. Claiming it is a “slow” process does not mean it is static or that it is a constant. If it were, you would be limited from much growth and your body would not be able to adapt.

[quote]

You can also limit fat gain extremely well while gaining muscle if you diet is spot on.

—[/quote]

You can also limit muscle gain if you are too restrictive and your body is trying to grow while you are forcing it to eat less.

[quote]

Here is what it boils down to.

Changes are so small and gradual that fluctuations aren’t large. Yes I probably synthesis a slightly different amount of protein each week, but it stays fairly constant.[/quote]

This is incorrect. It is by no means constant.

[quote]

This is created because they’re are little variables. I eat, sleep, train the same all of the time. My hormone levels are good and have nothing working against them.[/quote]

You do not understand this if you think there are little variables.

This is biochemistry. the smallest fluctuation can result in a tidal wave of response. If biology were that simple, the human race would have died off many thousands of years ago.

[quote]

So I was really just wanting to understand what you meant by “growing in spurts,” and why you think that that is how it works. Seriously just curious because I see more sense in the accumulation of very small gains over longs periods of time being the producer of most of the results we’ve seen.[/quote]

I would disagree. You may stay leaner, but claiming to gain MORE results would be an unknown.

[quote]ironmanzvw wrote:
if it takes 1 and 1 to make 2, how could 1 and 1.5 make 2.5?[/quote]

Huh? 1 + 1.5 does equal 2.5

lol, thought I was taking crazy pills or something…

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]ironmanzvw wrote:
if it takes 1 and 1 to make 2, how could 1 and 1.5 make 2.5?[/quote]

Huh? 1 + 1.5 does equal 2.5[/quote]

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]ironmanzvw wrote:
if it takes 1 and 1 to make 2, how could 1 and 1.5 make 2.5?[/quote]

Huh? 1 + 1.5 does equal 2.5[/quote]

Does it really, though?

Think about it.