Heisman Arguments

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
Take Tebow off Florida they would still be in the top 5, Same with McCoy and Texas, I can’t say that about Oklahoma, that is allllll Bradford.[/quote]

I disagree.

If you replaced Bradford and Tebow with [AVERAGE D-1 QB], then I think OU and UF could still finish in the Top 15, and certainly finish in the Top 25.

Do the same with McCoy, and I think the Horns are 8-4 at best.

They’d have had a hard time beating OU, OSU, TT, and Mizzou without Colt McCoy running the offense.

[quote]tGunslinger wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
Take Tebow off Florida they would still be in the top 5, Same with McCoy and Texas, I can’t say that about Oklahoma, that is allllll Bradford.

I disagree.

If you replaced Bradford and Tebow with [AVERAGE D-1 QB], then I think OU and UF could still finish in the Top 15, and certainly finish in the Top 25.

Do the same with McCoy, and I think the Horns are 8-4 at best.

They’d have had a hard time beating OU, OSU, TT, and Mizzou without Colt McCoy running the offense.[/quote]

Okay, so you’re saying that last weekend, without Harvin, Ingram, and Rainey, an (AVERAGE D-1 QB) could have fit those 3 tight passes into the endzone like Tebow?

Riiiiiiiiight.

Tebow doesn’t have the numbers because he plays in a conference known for its defensive play. Even though the SEC was CLEARLY down this year, every defense that Florida played this year averaged an overall defensive ranking of 39th in the nation, opposed to 80th, which was Oklahoma’s final opponent’s defensive strength. I have no source, but I did see it on an NCAA show the other day on ESPN. I’m sorry, but anyone who plays against a Big XII defense every week is going to put up huge numbers. Look at a chump like Chase Daniel.

If anyone deserves to win over Tebow, it’s McCoy, because he’s the only player whose dynamic is almost as good as Tebow’s. Shut down the pass, and what exactly is Harrell and Bradford good for? Nothing. And no, the criteria for Heisman doesn’t just boil down to passing efficiency, but there’s not a whole lot else besides that to discuss concerning Big XII QBs.

The fact is, McCoy did the most with less out of anyone in the Big XII. Tebow will not win again, because all of the other QB’s numbers are inflated. If I had a vote, and was forced to vote for someone not Tebow, as a college football fan it’d be McCoy - easily.

[quote]red04 wrote:
tGunslinger wrote:
Personally I think Crabtree should win it, but there’s this thing in college where unless you’re in some kind of love affair with the nation(Tebow last year) you can’t win the Heisman without being a top 5 team, so that 1 loss(as bad as it was on the scoreboard) made it impossible. Because clearly, if you’re the best player in college football, that somehow means you can win a game played by 50+ player rosters by yourself.

[/quote]

I agree with crabtree and I don’t think it’s the fact that his team is not in the top 5. It’s 90% because he’s not a quarterback. 10% not int he top 5.

[quote]SSC wrote:
tGunslinger wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
Take Tebow off Florida they would still be in the top 5, Same with McCoy and Texas, I can’t say that about Oklahoma, that is allllll Bradford.

I disagree.

If you replaced Bradford and Tebow with [AVERAGE D-1 QB], then I think OU and UF could still finish in the Top 15, and certainly finish in the Top 25.

Do the same with McCoy, and I think the Horns are 8-4 at best.

They’d have had a hard time beating OU, OSU, TT, and Mizzou without Colt McCoy running the offense.

Okay, so you’re saying that last weekend, without Harvin, Ingram, and Rainey, an (AVERAGE D-1 QB) could have fit those 3 tight passes into the endzone like Tebow?

Riiiiiiiiight.

…[/quote]

Read what I wrote again.

I didn’t say that UF would win the SEC Championship with Joe Average QB. I said they might’ve been able to finish in the Top 15, and probably finish in the Top 25.

That’s opposed to Texas, who, if you replaced McCoy with an average QB, would fall completely out of the rankings.

[quote]tGunslinger wrote:
SSC wrote:
tGunslinger wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
Take Tebow off Florida they would still be in the top 5, Same with McCoy and Texas, I can’t say that about Oklahoma, that is allllll Bradford.

I disagree.

If you replaced Bradford and Tebow with [AVERAGE D-1 QB], then I think OU and UF could still finish in the Top 15, and certainly finish in the Top 25.

Do the same with McCoy, and I think the Horns are 8-4 at best.

They’d have had a hard time beating OU, OSU, TT, and Mizzou without Colt McCoy running the offense.

Okay, so you’re saying that last weekend, without Harvin, Ingram, and Rainey, an (AVERAGE D-1 QB) could have fit those 3 tight passes into the endzone like Tebow?

Riiiiiiiiight.

Read what I wrote again.

I didn’t say that UF would win the SEC Championship with Joe Average QB. I said they might’ve been able to finish in the Top 15, and probably finish in the Top 25.

That’s opposed to Texas, who, if you replaced McCoy with an average QB, would fall completely out of the rankings.[/quote]

Sorry, misread that. While I’m clearly biased and would vote for Tebow, McCoy probably does deserve it.

As a side discussion - Although I’m not totally sure that UF would have rallied like they did after the Ole Miss lost had Tebow not been there. He brings a lot more to the field than a great arm and solid legs: A bulldozer mentality. When it comes to spirit and heart, I don’t think ANYONE can even be whispered in the same breath as Tim.

[quote]SSC wrote:

If anyone deserves to win over Tebow, it’s McCoy, because he’s the only player whose dynamic is almost as good as Tebow’s. Shut down the pass, and what exactly is Harrell and Bradford good for? Nothing. And no, the criteria for Heisman doesn’t just boil down to passing efficiency, but there’s not a whole lot else besides that to discuss concerning Big XII QBs.
[/quote]

In the head to head, Harrell embarrassed McCoy. The only reason the Heisman isn’t a runaway for Harrell is tu-norman.

And Harrell isn’t even the best player on the Red Raider team.

Too bad the Gators won’t get a taste of Leach’s offense. I really don’t think the SEC can stop it. Stoops’ defense shut it down because Leach ran the same offense at norman that he does at Tech.

If an SEC team would adopt Leach’s spread system, they would be unstoppable. Hell, if Leach were to have gone to Auburn - the Tigers would be a dynasty inside of 3 years.

Maybe the SEC has such highly ranked defenses because they have suck-ass offenses.

Any conference that utilizes fullbacks at the QB position must be behind a couple of steps on the offensive front.

I’m just saying.

Okay, I finally found what I was looking for the other day. I apologize my original statistics were off, but here is the official statement as of ESPN.com:

“Tebow’s statistics are overshadowed by those of more prolific Big 12 passers such as McCoy, Bradford and Texas Tech’s Graham Harrell. But if the award were determined by strength of schedule, Tebow would be a landslide winner. In 13 games this season, Tebow faced eight of the country’s top-30 defenses. In those eight games, Tebow completed 63 percent of his passes with 18 touchdowns and no interceptions. Nine of his 12 touchdown runs also came against top-30 defenses. Conversely, Bradford faced only two of the country’s top-30 defenses, and nine that ranked 66th or worse. McCoy didn’t face a defense ranked better than 65th and had his way with eight defenses ranked 86th or worse.”

No matter who wins it, though, all of the finalists (plus Crabtree and Harrell) had great seasons.

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
I wish Knowshon Moreno would win, he is very impressive to watch. Not as flashy as McFadden or Bush were, but still a damn good back.[/quote]

x2

[quote]elano wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:
I wish Knowshon Moreno would win, he is very impressive to watch. Not as flashy as McFadden or Bush were, but still a damn good back.

x2[/quote]

He’s just a sophomore on a mediocre team. Give him a year.

[quote]SSC wrote:
Okay, I finally found what I was looking for the other day. I apologize my original statistics were off, but here is the official statement as of ESPN.com:

“Tebow’s statistics are overshadowed by those of more prolific Big 12 passers such as McCoy, Bradford and Texas Tech’s Graham Harrell. But if the award were determined by strength of schedule, Tebow would be a landslide winner. In 13 games this season, Tebow faced eight of the country’s top-30 defenses. In those eight games, Tebow completed 63 percent of his passes with 18 touchdowns and no interceptions. Nine of his 12 touchdown runs also came against top-30 defenses. Conversely, Bradford faced only two of the country’s top-30 defenses, and nine that ranked 66th or worse. McCoy didn’t face a defense ranked better than 65th and had his way with eight defenses ranked 86th or worse.”

No matter who wins it, though, all of the finalists (plus Crabtree and Harrell) had great seasons.[/quote]

Those defensive rankings have been discussed in great detail in CFB circles, and it’s really a “Chicken or the Egg” type of deal.

Are the defenses in the Big XII underrated because they’re facing great offenses every week, or are the offenses inflated because they get to face horrible defenses every week?

Are the defenses in the SEC overrated statistically because they’re facing pitiful offenses every week, or do the offenses look bad because they’re facing great defenses every week?

We’ll never really know for sure, but we can venture a guess by looking at out-of-conference games. Big XII offenses lit up scoreboards both in-conference and out-of-conference. SEC defenses looked largely mediocre out-of-conference. Can we or should we draw any conclusions from that?

And neither conference as a whole played a particularly ambitious out-of-conference schedule.

Of course, both OU and UF played pretty decent OOC games, and they both looked really good against legit OOC opponents.

Saw an article in the Wall Street Journal on this today, makes a good point in addition to the defensive strength one:

"This year, the argument against Mr. Tebow runs the opposite way: He hasn’t, his critics charge, matched his 2007 totals. Which is true, because he hasn’t had to. Florida has a better team this year – they’ll be playing Oklahoma for the national championship on Jan. 8 in Miami – and he hasn’t needed to pass or run as often. In contrast, the other finalists for the Heisman – Oklahoma’s Sam Bradford and Texas’ Colt McCoy – have racked up more yards and more touchdowns than Mr. Tebow. But along the way they’ve padded their credentials with gaudy but often meaningless numbers.

For example, Mr. Bradford, who seems to be the betting favorite to win as we go to press, lobbed five touchdown passes in a 55-14 slaughter against a winless Washington; were the last two or three TDs really necessary? He threw five more in a 62-28 rout of Nebraska when two or three would have been more than adequate. In the Big 12 championship game against Missouri, which the Sooners won by 41 points, he threw 49 passes for 384 yards when half those totals would surely have secured the win.

Mr. Tebow, on the other hand, has accomplished just as much with far fewer throws. He had just 14 passes in Florida’s season-opening 56-10 win over Hawaii, just 15 in a 30-6 victory over Tennessee, only 13 in a decisive 49-10 win over Georgia, and just 11 in a 70-19 killing of the Citadel. It’s staggering to think what numbers he would have put up had he thrown 375 times like Mr. McCoy or 442 times like Mr. Bradford. In just 268 throws, Mr. Tebow passed for 2,515 yards for the same 9.4 yards per throw he averaged last year, and threw 28 touchdown passes with only two interceptions."

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Saw an article in the Wall Street Journal on this today, makes a good point in addition to the defensive strength one:

‘…Article…’

Tim Tebow Is Still the Best - WSJ [/quote]

Horribly biased article written by a person who evidently did not watch many, if any, OU football games this year.

Bradford, and OU as a whole, did the vast majority of their statistical damage in the 1st half this season. Bradford specifically has missed over two entire games worth of time sitting out of blowouts.

In the Washington game, 4 of Bradford’s 5 TD passes came in the first half. Against Nebraska, 3 of his 5 TD’s came in the first half. In neither game did Bradford take a single snap in the 4th Qtr.

Besides, if you’re going to accuse Bradford of naked stat-padding against overmatched opponents, then how do you reconcile his superior performances against Cincinnati, TCU, Texas, Texas Tech, Oklahoma State, and Missouri, all of whom are currently ranked in the Top 25? 2,251 yards, 25 TD’s, and 4 Int’s in six games against teams that are currently ranked in the Top 25 (with 5 of those 6 teams currently ranked in the Top 15).

But no matter. Sam Bradford is the 2008 Heisman Trohpy winner. I’m glad that my school’s athletes are getting recognized for their accomplishments.

[quote]tGunslinger wrote:
But no matter. Sam Bradford is the 2008 Heisman Trohpy winner. I’m glad that my school’s athletes are getting recognized for their accomplishments.[/quote]

Congrats to Bradford, but don’t try to act like Oklahoma has ever been disrespected. If anyone has a legitimate complaint, it’s RJ.

[quote]SSC wrote:
tGunslinger wrote:
But no matter. Sam Bradford is the 2008 Heisman Trohpy winner. I’m glad that my school’s athletes are getting recognized for their accomplishments.

Congrats to Bradford, but don’t try to act like Oklahoma has ever been disrespected. If anyone has a legitimate complaint, it’s RJ.[/quote]

I hope he enjoys it. It will be the last individual award he will ever win.

I am kinda forced to pull for the fucking sooners against the Gators, but I am not really going to enjoy doing it.

Bradford? The fucking Heisman? For real?

Who here actually thought that crooked eyed motherfucker had any chance at all? And no - you tu-norman fucks don’t count.

I knew Bradford would win. That was a no-brainer. He had the numbers all season, and his team has been beating opponents by 60+ points in most games. McCoy fell off the radar after the A&M game. So I wasn’t surprised. I was suprised that Tebow had the most first-place votes but still finished third.

But I’m not worried about it. The Gators can win the BCS Championship against the Sooners and Tebow and the gang can come back next year and he can win the Heisman again and another BCS Championship!

[quote]SSC wrote:

Tebow doesn’t have the numbers because he plays in a conference known for its defensive play. Even though the SEC was CLEARLY down this year, every defense that Florida played this year averaged an overall defensive ranking of 39th in the nation, opposed to 80th, which was Oklahoma’s final opponent’s defensive strength. [/quote]

You also have to consider the possibility that the defenses in the SEC are ranked so high because most of the offenses just aren’t that good (and vice-versa for the Big 12 defenses). It’s always a combination of factors. Just looking at overall defensive rankings can be misleading, IMO.

Edit apparently didn’t go through, and I don’t feel like writing it again.