T Nation

Heisman Arguments

I’m a Gator fan so obviously I want my boy Tebow to repeat. I have heard many arguments one way or the other but even the people who don’t think he necessarily had the best overall year due to the slow start admit, if you had the first overall pick to start a football team and you could pick any college player in the country, Tebow would be that pick hands down. Doesn’t that mean he is the best college player? Isn’t that what the heisman is about?

V

Tim is great, but I think the Colt will win it, Just by the fact of how he took he team thru 4 big games and his composure and leadership on the field.

I think the voter will give it to someone new, I don’t for see them giving Tim another win.

[quote]Vegita wrote:
I’m a Gator fan so obviously I want my boy Tebow to repeat. I have heard many arguments one way or the other but even the people who don’t think he necessarily had the best overall year due to the slow start admit, if you had the first overall pick to start a football team and you could pick any college player in the country, Tebow would be that pick hands down. Doesn’t that mean he is the best college player? Isn’t that what the heisman is about?

V[/quote]

That depends on what kind of offense you are going to run. He is not an accurate passer, so he would not do too well in a spread offense.

I doubt Mike Leach would have much use for him.

But he is a good college QB. The best college player in the country? I don’t think so.

He is not better than McCoy - and I fucking hate McCoy.

He is not better than Crabtree, but then again - who is?

He has way more heart than Bradford, and is not afraid to carry the team on his back.

I think Harrell is a better QB than Tebow - “system” qb and all.

But Harrell and Crabtree are out of the running due to their classic fail in norman.

It is most likely between McCoy and Tebow. I like Tebow better than McCoy (have I said I fucking hate Colt?), but I think McCoy is the better player than Tebow is.

Tebow should consider moving to linebacker if he wants a career in the NFL.

Colt McCoy has a really punchable face, but I’m hoping he wins it.

Just 'cus he’s better.

[quote]Otep wrote:
Colt McCoy has a really punchable face, but I’m hoping he wins it.

Just 'cus he’s better.[/quote]

Not as punchable as Bradford’s. Dude looks like he’s been punched a lot.

I think it will be close between McCoy and Bradford. Tebow won’t repeat, too much competition.

I wish Knowshon Moreno would win, he is very impressive to watch. Not as flashy as McFadden or Bush were, but still a damn good back.

This year:
http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/natlRank.jsp?year=2008&div=4&rpt=IA_playerpasseff

Last Year:
http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/natlRank.jsp?year=2007&div=4&rpt=IA_playerpasseff

Bradford Leads 2 years in a row. This year his Team is #1 going in to the Bowls.

I am from Florida and have family in Jacksonville (Tebow’s supposed hometown) and Gainseville (UF hometown), but Bradford deserves it.

Although, I still think UF can beat the Sooners!!
Go Gators.

Colt McCoy +500
Graham Harrell +5000
Sam Bradford -500
Shonn Greene +7500
Tim Tebow +350

The odds never lie.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Vegita wrote:
I’m a Gator fan so obviously I want my boy Tebow to repeat. I have heard many arguments one way or the other but even the people who don’t think he necessarily had the best overall year due to the slow start admit, if you had the first overall pick to start a football team and you could pick any college player in the country, Tebow would be that pick hands down. Doesn’t that mean he is the best college player? Isn’t that what the heisman is about?

V

That depends on what kind of offense you are going to run. He is not an accurate passer, so he would not do too well in a spread offense.

I doubt Mike Leach would have much use for him.

But he is a good college QB. The best college player in the country? I don’t think so.

He is not better than McCoy - and I fucking hate McCoy.

He is not better than Crabtree, but then again - who is?

He has way more heart than Bradford, and is not afraid to carry the team on his back.

I think Harrell is a better QB than Tebow - “system” qb and all.

But Harrell and Crabtree are out of the running due to their classic fail in norman.

It is most likely between McCoy and Tebow. I like Tebow better than McCoy (have I said I fucking hate Colt?), but I think McCoy is the better player than Tebow is.

Tebow should consider moving to linebacker if he wants a career in the NFL.
[/quote]

RJ, Tebow not accurate? Are you kidding me? His last two years he is at 65% completion percentage. His TD’s to Int’s last year were 32 - 6 and this year they are 28 - 2. He’s thrown 4 less thouchdowns this year and 4 less interceptions, despite having over 100 less passing attempts. Also there were 5 games where Tebow had 15 or fewer passing ATTEMPTS this season because they got up so quick and thier running game was so dominant. And if you watched the game against Alabama, you would have seen several Deep balls with the touch one would expect on a 10-15 yard pass. Also Tebow has a 176 Passer rating wich measures overall Passing, McCoy has a 179, so thats negligeble, but McCoy can’t run the rock like tebow can.

Heck hardly any college RBs can do what Tebow does on the goaline. Look I know I’m a biased Tebow Nuthugger, I’m not denying that, but you need to have valid arguments against him, not some assertation that isn’t true about his passing accuracy. Also just for some perspective I listen to espn radio all day long and I have heard many football people say he is either in the top 5 college football players ever or possibly could become the number 1 all time.

V

[quote]Vegita wrote:
RJ, Tebow not accurate? Are you kidding me? His last two years he is at 65% completion percentage. His TD’s to Int’s last year were 32 - 6 and this year they are 28 - 2. He’s thrown 4 less thouchdowns this year and 4 less interceptions, despite having over 100 less passing attempts. Also there were 5 games where Tebow had 15 or fewer passing ATTEMPTS this season because they got up so quick and thier running game was so dominant. And if you watched the game against Alabama, you would have seen several Deep balls with the touch one would expect on a 10-15 yard pass. Also Tebow has a 176 Passer rating wich measures overall Passing, McCoy has a 179, so thats negligeble, but McCoy can’t run the rock like tebow can. [/quote]

I should have clarified my statement. Tebow is not that accurate when he throws deep.

I think McCoy could run the ball just as easily as Tebow does, if he chose to do so. He uses his running ability to create passing opportunities. Tebow runs to make yards.

It’s not that he can’t. It’s that he doesn’t. There is a difference.

[quote]Heck hardly any college RBs can do what Tebow does on the goaline. Look I know I’m a biased Tebow Nuthugger, I’m not denying that, but you need to have valid arguments against him, not some assertation that isn’t true about his passing accuracy. Also just for some perspective I listen to espn radio all day long and I have heard many football people say he is either in the top 5 college football players ever or possibly could become the number 1 all time.
[/quote]

Just about every running back can do what Tebow does on the goal line. C’mon. I know you admit to being a nut-hugger, but that’s a little much, don’t you think?

And you want me to stick to valid arguments?

Tebow may wind up being the best college player all-time. I just don’t think he is the best this year.

As an OU fan, if I had to pick between McCoy and Tebow, I’d pick McCoy one hundred times over before I picked Tebow.

While they have different styles, both can run very well. McCoy’s running style is like a poor man’s Pat White, while Tebow is 100% power runner. However, even when he tucks it and runs, McCoy is looking to make a play downfield while Tebow just tries to pick up 4-6 yards.

As far as throwing the ball, neither one has a wonderful deep ball, but McCoy is leaps and bounds more accurate with the short and intermediate stuff than Tebow is.

If nothing opens up immediately:

A bad QB (like a Sean Glennon, VT) will take the sack.

The vast majority of college QB’s will throw it away.

A good QB (like Tebow) will tuck it and pick up a few easy yards.

However, McCoy will scramble left, scramble right, tuck it and sprint towards the L.O.S., stop on a dime, pump fake once, and then hit a receiver in stride for a 35 yards gain.

And I’m not exaggerating for effect. McCoy has done exactly what I described numerous times this year. His pure “playmaking” ability is off the charts, and Tebow can’t match it.

And as far as intangibles go (“heart”, “toughness”), I don’t think McCoy has to take a back seat to anybody.

Until last Saturday, Tebow had never won a ballgame after trailing in the 2nd half. McCoy has led 2nd half comebacks at Nebraska, at Texas Tech, vs. Iowa in a bowl game, vs. TCU, vs. Nebraska (again), at Oklahoma State, vs. Oklahoma (ranked #1 both at the time of the game and right now), and damn near did it again at Texas Tech this year.

That’s 8 2nd half comebacks in his career, with one more that came literally 0:01 short. Tebow just now got his first.

So don’t try to sell me that Tebow’s got “heart” and “toughness” and McCoy doesn’t.

As far as stats, McCoy wins by a significant margin (4000 TY, 42 TD’s in 12 games for McCoy, 3000 TY, 40 TD’s in 13 games for Tebow).

Records? McCoy is 11-1, Tebow is 12-1.

“But Tebow’s got an SEC title and a National Title game berth!” Not gonna buy that argument this year. The only reason McCoy can’t match that is pure bad luck, not because of any condemnable performance on the field.

In short, I am rooting for Sam Bradford to take home the trophy. But there would be no shame in losing the statue to McCoy this year. If he loses to Tebow, I’ll think he got screwed.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Vegita wrote:
RJ, Tebow not accurate? Are you kidding me? His last two years he is at 65% completion percentage. His TD’s to Int’s last year were 32 - 6 and this year they are 28 - 2. He’s thrown 4 less thouchdowns this year and 4 less interceptions, despite having over 100 less passing attempts. Also there were 5 games where Tebow had 15 or fewer passing ATTEMPTS this season because they got up so quick and thier running game was so dominant. And if you watched the game against Alabama, you would have seen several Deep balls with the touch one would expect on a 10-15 yard pass. Also Tebow has a 176 Passer rating wich measures overall Passing, McCoy has a 179, so thats negligeble, but McCoy can’t run the rock like tebow can.

I should have clarified my statement. Tebow is not that accurate when he throws deep.

I think McCoy could run the ball just as easily as Tebow does, if he chose to do so. He uses his running ability to create passing opportunities. Tebow runs to make yards.

It’s not that he can’t. It’s that he doesn’t. There is a difference.

Heck hardly any college RBs can do what Tebow does on the goaline. Look I know I’m a biased Tebow Nuthugger, I’m not denying that, but you need to have valid arguments against him, not some assertation that isn’t true about his passing accuracy. Also just for some perspective I listen to espn radio all day long and I have heard many football people say he is either in the top 5 college football players ever or possibly could become the number 1 all time.

Just about every running back can do what Tebow does on the goal line. C’mon. I know you admit to being a nut-hugger, but that’s a little much, don’t you think?

And you want me to stick to valid arguments?

Tebow may wind up being the best college player all-time. I just don’t think he is the best this year. [/quote]

Perhaps it was a bit overstated, but lets not kid ourselves, he is a monster of a QB, the Size of a culpepper, with better mobility and that something extra that makes him get what he needs to against almost all odds. Also there is word that he had some minor injury issues that he played through earlier in the year that may have hampered his performances. Not that he would ever let on about it, but people close to him have.

Basically what I have to look at is last year for Mccoy and Tebow, it’s not even close. McCoy sucked last year. So that being said, this year was probably the best McCoy had in him, and while tebow didn’t have his best year, it was still very good. So if you look at tebows best and worst and compare them to McCoys best and worst, tebow is the better football player, and I believe the Heisman awards the best college football player, not specifically the guy who has the most gaudy stats on the season. It’s a shame this isn’t done after the national championship game, because I think you will see again, florida overcoming the number one team in football for the second straight game, and doing it all on the back of Tebow.

V

Take Tebow off Florida they would still be in the top 5, Same with McCoy and Texas, I can’t say that about Oklahoma, that is allllll Bradford.

Oh yeah as far as accuracy goes, I guess noboady watched Florida vs. Alabama, because Tebow was squeezing in passes on the run that I haven’t seen made in college in a long time.

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
Oh yeah as far as accuracy goes, I guess noboady watched Florida vs. Alabama, because Tebow was squeezing in passes on the run that I haven’t seen made in college in a long time.[/quote]

Yea, I know that, but I always have to temper my excitement and enthusiasm if I talk to non-florida fans. Anyways, I would like to see tebow get it and it would give him the chance to be the first person in history to get heisman 3 times. But overall I just want to see him demolish OU in the BCS title game.

V

[quote]tGunslinger wrote:
and damn near did it again at Texas Tech this year.
[/quote]

Obviously the “stats” will end up saying he didn’t lead the comeback victory, because they lost; but anyone that cares knows he led the comeback, it’s not like he was on the field failing to tackle Crabtree on the sideline.

Personally I think Crabtree should win it, but there’s this thing in college where unless you’re in some kind of love affair with the nation(Tebow last year) you can’t win the Heisman without being a top 5 team, so that 1 loss(as bad as it was on the scoreboard) made it impossible. Because clearly, if you’re the best player in college football, that somehow means you can win a game played by 50+ player rosters by yourself.

One last note, bringing up injuries for Tebow is so dumb, considering Bradford played his last 2 games with a surgery scheduled. People want to vote for Tebow because he’s a throwback athlete, “WE WILL NEVER PLAY LIKE THAT AGAIN” in tears, what a hero. Being a good guy shouldn’t earn you points for a trophy that is decided on the field.

Go Gators!

[quote]Vegita wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
Oh yeah as far as accuracy goes, I guess noboady watched Florida vs. Alabama, because Tebow was squeezing in passes on the run that I haven’t seen made in college in a long time.

Yea, I know that, but I always have to temper my excitement and enthusiasm if I talk to non-florida fans. Anyways, I would like to see tebow get it and it would give him the chance to be the first person in history to get heisman 3 times. But overall I just want to see him demolish OU in the BCS title game.

V[/quote]

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
Take Tebow off Florida they would still be in the top 5, Same with McCoy and Texas, I can’t say that about Oklahoma, that is allllll Bradford.[/quote]

I wouldn’t say OU is ALL Bradford. Obviously he’s a HUGE part in the success of the Sooners this year, but OU had not only 1, but 2 1000yd rushers this year in Murray and Brown. Also, Brown rushed for 20 TDs and Murray rushed for 14 TDs. The Sooners rushed for 45 TD’s (including 5 by Bradford) and threw for 49 TD’s (48 by Bradford), so the offense was pretty balanced.

I do agree with you, however, that OU probably wouldn’t be Top 5 without Bradford, but I don’t know about Texas being Top 5 without McCoy. He’s a huge part of their success, and made a lot of big plays this year (passing and running, especially on 3rd down) that the backup may not have made. Vince Young, on the other hand, had pretty much himself and carried the team in 2005, so that Texas team wouldn’t have been Top 5 without Young.

As an OU fan I’m pulling for Bradford, but I think McCoy is going to win.

from everything Ive heard from scouting reports and recruiting information olklahoma would be no worse off with out Bradford, he has an amazing offensive line, wide receivers and a huge running game. McCoy is carrying his team pretty much but they didn’t do as well.

The biggest reason for me that Tebow is the best (not why he will win I doubt he will) is that, and Tebow even said this himself, he would love to pass against a Big 12 defense. Playing against the Sec defense which is best in the country instead of Big 12 which is worst makes a pretty big difference. But we will see in January.