Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle

Off Topic
21

[quote]nephorm wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Is there a reality that is independent of our observations and experiences? I’m reading a biography of Einstein and he has trouble with the Principle, which seems to be confirmed by Quantum Mechanics: Reality does not exist except in so far as we interact with it.

Discuss?

That is the Copenhagen interpretation of the principle… those kinds of far reaching consequences do not necessarily extend from the physics.[/quote]

True. In any case, I’m an Everett-Wheeler-Graham Model kind of guy.

Many-Worlders UNITE!

… Oh wait, we already have… Somewhere.

22

[quote]dragonmamma wrote:
Is this that thing about the dead cat in the box?

I say the cat is either dead or it isn’t, whether anyone is paying attention or not.

And I think that at least 50% of you guys are masturbating right now, whether anyone is paying attention or not.[/quote]

Sooo… If a tree masturbates alone in the forest do any dead cats hear it???

23

This stuff gives me a feeling of knowing that I’m missing something, I just don’t know what.

It’s hard to bridge the gap between observable and theoretical without getting all existential.

Did Isaacson also write Einstiens Clocks and Ponicaires Maps?

24

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Is there a reality that is independent of our observations and experiences? I’m reading a biography of Einstein and he has trouble with the Principle, which seems to be confirmed by Quantum Mechanics: Reality does not exist except in so far as we interact with it.

Discuss?[/quote]

If there is no means to measure or experience it (objectively or subjectively), then it does not exist.

25

[quote]meangenes wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Is there a reality that is independent of our observations and experiences? I’m reading a biography of Einstein and he has trouble with the Principle, which seems to be confirmed by Quantum Mechanics: Reality does not exist except in so far as we interact with it.

Discuss?

The answers you seek lie in esoteric studies. Those questions are addressed there. What book are you reading? I’m curious.

Its a biography of Einstein. In it, Einstein and Heisenberg are talking and Einstein points out that the Principle leads to the conclusion that there is no extant reality outside of our consciousness, to which Einstein strongly disagrees. Heisenberg is shocked, saying that it was Einstein’s ideas of relativity that led him to the conclusion.

Here’s the book: Einstein, by Walter Isaacson
Page 332

I think Einstein was trying to one-up him.

Saying that Heisenberg’s understanding was inferior. Einstein believed in god as the creator. He most likely believed that the conscious was an integral yet infinite part of the universe.

Where did the conversation go from there? Where is this thread going?[/quote]

Einstein was an atheist

26

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
It seems counterintuitive that, as space and time really are spacetime, consciousness and physical reality are consciousnessreality. If that’s the case, is the universe the mind of God?[/quote]

When you hear Einstein and Hawkins and many other scienctists talk about God, God doesn’t play dice, inside the mind of God ect, they are really talking about the universe, not the biblical God.

Spacetime is a fabric of reality. In general relativity, Einstein combined the 3 dimensional of space (up-down, left-right, front-back) with another dimension, the dimension of time, to make our physical world a 4 dimensional spacetime fabric.

All the physical objects: planets, stars, people, interact with this fabric which warps and curves to create what we all know as gravity. According to general relativity, every event that took place and will ever take place since the begginning of time is “included” in this fabric of spacetime, which means that present, past, and future aka “flow of time” is nothing but an illusion created by human consiousness.

Everything is predetermined. Just as we can say we can move "over there’, and “over here” in space, we are just as inclined to say we can move from “now” to “then”. We cannot see Mars, but that doesn’t take away the fact that Mar exist. Mars is there, just not in front of us.

We can’t travel into the future, but that doesn’t mean that future events aren’t already in place, happeninng right now, we just hanv’t gotten there yet.

This theory however, contradicts with quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics is an escape for people who refuse to believe in determinism (Einstein was a determinist, he refused to believe that the events in the universe happen by chance, he called quantum mechanics “spooky”, and famously stated that “God does not play dice”. He spent a good deal of his career trying to debunk the Principle of Uncertainty).

27

Reading a physics discussion on this forum is like reading a lifting or nutrition discussion on a science/math/politics forum lol

28

“Let teachers and priests and philosophers brood over questions of reality and illusion. I know this: if life is an illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and am content.”

Conan of Cimmeria, in Queen of the Black Coast, as imagined by Robert E. Howard.

29

[quote]actionjeff wrote:
Reading a physics discussion on this forum is like reading a lifting or nutrition discussion on a science/math/politics forum lol [/quote]

What is that supposed to mean? Does everyone still believe BB’ers are all a bunch of meatheads? We have a lot of smart people on this forum. Quite a few doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc.

I’d be interested in hearing all your guys’ thoughts on the hard problem of consciousness, as this thread appears to be moving in that direction.

30

[quote]Tithonus81 wrote:
actionjeff wrote:
Reading a physics discussion on this forum is like reading a lifting or nutrition discussion on a science/math/politics forum lol

What is that supposed to mean? Does everyone still believe BB’ers are all a bunch of meatheads? We have a lot of smart people on this forum. Quite a few doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc.

I’d be interested in hearing all your guys’ thoughts on the hard problem of consciousness, as this thread appears to be moving in that direction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness[/quote]

I think we have to have some axiom, something we all agree on, if we are to have any deductive knowledge at all.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident…” is one such famous example.

Consciousness is generally conceded to be one such axiom. Examining various aspects is fine but we accept that consciousness exists.

31

[quote]digitalairair wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
It seems counterintuitive that, as space and time really are spacetime, consciousness and physical reality are consciousnessreality. If that’s the case, is the universe the mind of God?

When you hear Einstein and Hawkins and many other scienctists talk about God, God doesn’t play dice, inside the mind of God ect, they are really talking about the universe, not the biblical God.

Spacetime is a fabric of reality. In general relativity, Einstein combined the 3 dimensional of space (up-down, left-right, front-back) with another dimension, the dimension of time, to make our physical world a 4 dimensional spacetime fabric.

All the physical objects: planets, stars, people, interact with this fabric which warps and curves to create what we all know as gravity. According to general relativity, every event that took place and will ever take place since the begginning of time is “included” in this fabric of spacetime, which means that present, past, and future aka “flow of time” is nothing but an illusion created by human consiousness.

Everything is predetermined. Just as we can say we can move "over there’, and “over here” in space, we are just as inclined to say we can move from “now” to “then”. We cannot see Mars, but that doesn’t take away the fact that Mar exist. Mars is there, just not in front of us.

We can’t travel into the future, but that doesn’t mean that future events aren’t already in place, happeninng right now, we just hanv’t gotten there yet.

This theory however, contradicts with quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics is an escape for people who refuse to believe in determinism (Einstein was a determinist, he refused to believe that the events in the universe happen by chance, he called quantum mechanics “spooky”, and famously stated that “God does not play dice”. He spent a good deal of his career trying to debunk the Principle of Uncertainty). [/quote]

You should post more often.

32

[quote]Professor X wrote:
digitalairair wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
It seems counterintuitive that, as space and time really are spacetime, consciousness and physical reality are consciousnessreality. If that’s the case, is the universe the mind of God?

When you hear Einstein and Hawkins and many other scienctists talk about God, God doesn’t play dice, inside the mind of God ect, they are really talking about the universe, not the biblical God.

Spacetime is a fabric of reality. In general relativity, Einstein combined the 3 dimensional of space (up-down, left-right, front-back) with another dimension, the dimension of time, to make our physical world a 4 dimensional spacetime fabric.

All the physical objects: planets, stars, people, interact with this fabric which warps and curves to create what we all know as gravity. According to general relativity, every event that took place and will ever take place since the begginning of time is “included” in this fabric of spacetime, which means that present, past, and future aka “flow of time” is nothing but an illusion created by human consiousness.

Everything is predetermined. Just as we can say we can move "over there’, and “over here” in space, we are just as inclined to say we can move from “now” to “then”. We cannot see Mars, but that doesn’t take away the fact that Mar exist. Mars is there, just not in front of us.

We can’t travel into the future, but that doesn’t mean that future events aren’t already in place, happeninng right now, we just hanv’t gotten there yet.

This theory however, contradicts with quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics is an escape for people who refuse to believe in determinism (Einstein was a determinist, he refused to believe that the events in the universe happen by chance, he called quantum mechanics “spooky”, and famously stated that “God does not play dice”. He spent a good deal of his career trying to debunk the Principle of Uncertainty).

You should post more often. [/quote]

RIGHTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT, everyone wants to know about his moms puss dripping with green goo.

33

[quote]dk44 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
digitalairair wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
It seems counterintuitive that, as space and time really are spacetime, consciousness and physical reality are consciousnessreality. If that’s the case, is the universe the mind of God?

When you hear Einstein and Hawkins and many other scienctists talk about God, God doesn’t play dice, inside the mind of God ect, they are really talking about the universe, not the biblical God.

Spacetime is a fabric of reality. In general relativity, Einstein combined the 3 dimensional of space (up-down, left-right, front-back) with another dimension, the dimension of time, to make our physical world a 4 dimensional spacetime fabric.

All the physical objects: planets, stars, people, interact with this fabric which warps and curves to create what we all know as gravity.

According to general relativity, every event that took place and will ever take place since the begginning of time is “included” in this fabric of spacetime, which means that present, past, and future aka “flow of time” is nothing but an illusion created by human consiousness.

Everything is predetermined. Just as we can say we can move "over there’, and “over here” in space, we are just as inclined to say we can move from “now” to “then”. We cannot see Mars, but that doesn’t take away the fact that Mar exist. Mars is there, just not in front of us.

We can’t travel into the future, but that doesn’t mean that future events aren’t already in place, happeninng right now, we just hanv’t gotten there yet.

This theory however, contradicts with quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics is an escape for people who refuse to believe in determinism

(Einstein was a determinist, he refused to believe that the events in the universe happen by chance, he called quantum mechanics “spooky”, and famously stated that “God does not play dice”. He spent a good deal of his career trying to debunk the Principle of Uncertainty).

You should post more often.

RIGHTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT, everyone wants to know about his moms puss dripping with green goo.[/quote]

I obviously missed that one.

Einstein’s theory of KY jelly?

34

[quote]digitalairair wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
It seems counterintuitive that, as space and time really are spacetime, consciousness and physical reality are consciousnessreality. If that’s the case, is the universe the mind of God?

When you hear Einstein and Hawkins and many other scienctists talk about God, God doesn’t play dice, inside the mind of God ect, they are really talking about the universe, not the biblical God.

Spacetime is a fabric of reality. In general relativity, Einstein combined the 3 dimensional of space (up-down, left-right, front-back) with another dimension, the dimension of time, to make our physical world a 4 dimensional spacetime fabric.

All the physical objects: planets, stars, people, interact with this fabric which warps and curves to create what we all know as gravity.

According to general relativity, every event that took place and will ever take place since the begginning of time is “included” in this fabric of spacetime, which means that present, past, and future aka “flow of time” is nothing but an illusion created by human consiousness.

Everything is predetermined. Just as we can say we can move "over there’, and “over here” in space, we are just as inclined to say we can move from “now” to “then”. We cannot see Mars, but that doesn’t take away the fact that Mar exist. Mars is there, just not in front of us.

We can’t travel into the future, but that doesn’t mean that future events aren’t already in place, happeninng right now, we just hanv’t gotten there yet.

This theory however, contradicts with quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics is an escape for people who refuse to believe in determinism (Einstein was a determinist, he refused to believe that the events in the universe happen by chance, he called quantum mechanics “spooky”, and famously stated that “God does not play dice”. He spent a good deal of his career trying to debunk the Principle of Uncertainty). [/quote]

Is the universe then a pre-set “creation”? If timespace is past, present and future set in motion, then what set this in motion? Which eventually brings us to Plato’s “prime mover”.

Or is the universe random happenings that fall into a measurable sequence that we perceive as “order”.

Time to break out the old books. Amazing how much stuff you forget from philosophy 101.

35

[quote]Tithonus81 wrote:
actionjeff wrote:
Reading a physics discussion on this forum is like reading a lifting or nutrition discussion on a science/math/politics forum lol

What is that supposed to mean? Does everyone still believe BB’ers are all a bunch of meatheads? We have a lot of smart people on this forum. Quite a few doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc.

I’d be interested in hearing all your guys’ thoughts on the hard problem of consciousness, as this thread appears to be moving in that direction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness[/quote]

The Chalmers stuff is interesting. A few years ago I was reading a lot in the field of Consciousness Studies, including Chalmers. You might want to read some of Francisco Varela’s stuff.

Now, to your other point. People can be smart but not have the background to discuss specialized topics. Being a doctor or a lawyer does not qualify you to talk about quantum physics.

Of course, a lot of people have read popularizations about quantum theory, so chat away…

36

[quote]Gerg wrote:
digitalairair wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
It seems counterintuitive that, as space and time really are spacetime, consciousness and physical reality are consciousnessreality. If that’s the case, is the universe the mind of God?

When you hear Einstein and Hawkins and many other scienctists talk about God, God doesn’t play dice, inside the mind of God ect, they are really talking about the universe, not the biblical God.

Spacetime is a fabric of reality. In general relativity, Einstein combined the 3 dimensional of space (up-down, left-right, front-back) with another dimension, the dimension of time, to make our physical world a 4 dimensional spacetime fabric.

All the physical objects: planets, stars, people, interact with this fabric which warps and curves to create what we all know as gravity.

According to general relativity, every event that took place and will ever take place since the begginning of time is “included” in this fabric of spacetime, which means that present, past, and future aka “flow of time” is nothing but an illusion created by human consiousness.

Everything is predetermined. Just as we can say we can move "over there’, and “over here” in space, we are just as inclined to say we can move from “now” to “then”. We cannot see Mars, but that doesn’t take away the fact that Mar exist. Mars is there, just not in front of us.

We can’t travel into the future, but that doesn’t mean that future events aren’t already in place, happeninng right now, we just hanv’t gotten there yet.

This theory however, contradicts with quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics is an escape for people who refuse to believe in determinism

(Einstein was a determinist, he refused to believe that the events in the universe happen by chance, he called quantum mechanics “spooky”, and famously stated that “God does not play dice”. He spent a good deal of his career trying to debunk the Principle of Uncertainty).

Is the universe then a pre-set “creation”? If timespace is past, present and future set in motion, then what set this in motion? Which eventually brings us to Plato’s “prime mover”.

Or is the universe random happenings that fall into a measurable sequence that we perceive as “order”.

Time to break out the old books. Amazing how much stuff you forget from philosophy 101.[/quote]

Is the universe “pre-set”? This depends on who you talk to and what kind of religiouis or scientific dogmma you believe in.

If you are a deist, then you believe that a higher being gave the universe a set of law, tips it (sets off the big bang), and then just lets it fly and leave it alone and let it evolve.

This view is probably for mebody who believes in both a creator and evolution, since it does not rule out the fact that there is a creator who designed the universe, it’s just that He does not directly interact with the world, so he does not listen to your prayers.

But the more you learn about natural selection and evolutioin, the more you realize that intelligence design and evolution are really two incompatible views.

If you are an atheist, then obviously you don’t believe in a creator, then you probably wouldn;t be able to explain whio the “first mover” is, since nobody knows anything about what caused the big bang and what went on before the big bang, since all physical law and mathematical equation breaks down at the point of singularity.

Since the big bang created time and space, it is impossible to conceive it or even imagine a singularity with a mind (anytime you imagine something in your mind you presuppose the fact that it occupies in a particulars point in space and is moving from one moment to the next, thought itself is impossible without time and space).

With that said, when Stephen Hawkins asked “What was God doing before he made the universe?” He didn’t really expect anyone to have an answer.

However, modern theoretical physics has a new idea that most people havn’t heard of. It has to do with M-theory and string theory. The theory goes as follows : The universe has many many dimensions made out of membranes ( hence M-theory for membrane theory), and there are infinite numbers of membrane universes out there, and those membranes behave like waves in the ocean, rubbing off of and against each other all the time.

Once in a while two of those membranes collide with each other and sets of the big bang. The fact that there are about 100 billion stars just in the Milky Way,and that there are approximately 400 billion galaxies just in our universe…the thought of big bangs happening everywhere and that there are infinite amount of universes out there is just mind boggling, as it makes the best of us feel extremely helpless and meaningless.

37

jj

38

[quote]entheogens wrote:
Tithonus81 wrote:
actionjeff wrote:
Reading a physics discussion on this forum is like reading a lifting or nutrition discussion on a science/math/politics forum lol

What is that supposed to mean? Does everyone still believe BB’ers are all a bunch of meatheads? We have a lot of smart people on this forum. Quite a few doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc.

I’d be interested in hearing all your guys’ thoughts on the hard problem of consciousness, as this thread appears to be moving in that direction.

The Chalmers stuff is interesting. A few years ago I was reading a lot in the field of Consciousness Studies, including Chalmers. You might want to read some of Francisco Varela’s stuff.

Now, to your other point. People can be smart but not have the background to discuss specialized topics. Being a doctor or a lawyer does not qualify you to talk about quantum physics.

Of course, a lot of people have read popularizations about quantum theory, so chat away…[/quote]

i

39

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Is there a reality that is independent of our observations and experiences? I’m reading a biography of Einstein and he has trouble with the Principle, which seems to be confirmed by Quantum Mechanics: Reality does not exist except in so far as we interact with it.

Discuss?[/quote]

Is there a reality that is indepedent to our observation and experiences? Yes, most definately. Reality is perceived differently from species to species, hell, according to the special theory of relativity, reality is perceieved differently from person to person.

Space and time are relative to the observers and their frame of references. Human beings perceive the world through the senses evolved the results from natural selection. We only have, and only need 5 senses in order to make sense of the world.

Those are the same five senses which helped our ancestors survive in the struggle for survival, and that explains why we have the sensations that we have. If one wishes to grasp reality in entirety, havingt only 5 senses is a handicap.

What if we have an extra sense? What if we could perceive xrays or ultraviolet light? What if we have the senses that bats have? Obviously the reality that we know of and the knowledge that we have of how the world works would be completely shattered.

We are only equipped to perceive a tiny section of the electromagnetic spectrum because that was all our ancestors needed to survive, and that is all we needed for the next million years. We live in the middle world, between the microscopic world of quantum mechanics and the cosmic world of stars and planets and gallexies.

We can’t see electons or gravity or Saturn with our nakeded eyes simply because we don’t need to. We are blind to most of the forces that run the universe.

Plato said that we live in an inescapable cave and that all we can ever hope to know are shadows of what’s really out there. Our skull is the cave, and our thoughts, consiousness, and sensations are the shadows of on the wall.

Wepercieve with our senses, but we really “see” with our brain. The paradox is,our brain can’t really see anything, since our brains area seeded so deeply inside our dark skull, where no light could ever penetrate. Anything we see, hear, feel, or taste is nothing but electric and chemical signals and messages that our adapted sensory organs broke down and converted.

Wee experience the representations of reality instead of reality itself. Rather than thinking about our perceptions and sensations as photographs of reality, our experiences of reality is really more somebody making an etching of a flower from a real flower, if that makes sense.

Outside of human experiences and values, we can never know what’s really out there.

40

[quote]Gerg wrote:
digitalairair wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
It seems counterintuitive that, as space and time really are spacetime, consciousness and physical reality are consciousnessreality. If that’s the case, is the universe the mind of God?

When you hear Einstein and Hawkins and many other scienctists talk about God, God doesn’t play dice, inside the mind of God ect, they are really talking about the universe, not the biblical God.

Spacetime is a fabric of reality. In general relativity, Einstein combined the 3 dimensional of space (up-down, left-right, front-back) with another dimension, the dimension of time, to make our physical world a 4 dimensional spacetime fabric.

All the physical objects: planets, stars, people, interact with this fabric which warps and curves to create what we all know as gravity.

According to general relativity, every event that took place and will ever take place since the begginning of time is “included” in this fabric of spacetime, which means that present, past, and future aka “flow of time” is nothing but an illusion created by human consiousness.

Everything is predetermined. Just as we can say we can move "over there’, and “over here” in space, we are just as inclined to say we can move from “now” to “then”. We cannot see Mars, but that doesn’t take away the fact that Mar exist. Mars is there, just not in front of us.

We can’t travel into the future, but that doesn’t mean that future events aren’t already in place, happeninng right now, we just hanv’t gotten there yet.

This theory however, contradicts with quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics is an escape for people who refuse to believe in determinism

(Einstein was a determinist, he refused to believe that the events in the universe happen by chance, he called quantum mechanics “spooky”, and famously stated that “God does not play dice”. He spent a good deal of his career trying to debunk the Principle of Uncertainty).

Is the universe then a pre-set “creation”? If timespace is past, present and future set in motion, then what set this in motion? Which eventually brings us to Plato’s “prime mover”.

Or is the universe random happenings that fall into a measurable sequence that we perceive as “order”.

Time to break out the old books. Amazing how much stuff you forget from philosophy 101.[/quote]

Who the prime mover is depends on your religous or scientific dogma. If you are a deist, you believe that there is a Creator who designed the world and kicks the universe into gear.

However, this Creator doesn’t interact with the world directly. He doens’t create miracles and he doesn’t answer your prayers. He simply created the law of the universe, brings it into existence, and sits back and lets the rest of the world evolve on its own.

This belief might be comfortable for somebody who believes in both the Creator and evolution, but the more you learn about evolution, the more you realize that intelligent design and natural selection are imcompatible.

IF you are an atheist, then the question of who or what set the universe in motion does not have a definate answer. As we all know, space and time is created by the Big Bang, and Big Bang “banged” from a singularity, where all mathmetical equations and physical laws break down.

In fact, you can’t even begin to talk about or even conceive a singularity with your mind, because any thoughts, anything that you can ever think of must occupies a point in time and a region of space. So when Stephen Hawkins asked “What was God doing before he made the universe?”, he wasn’t expecting anybody to give an answer.

However, some theoretical physicists recently came up with a new idea regarding what bang the big bang. I’m not terribly familiar with it, so I apologize in advance if I say anything wrong. This theory came from M-Theory and String theory.

According to M- Theory, our universe is made up of many different dimensions, or membranes that are stretched out from tiny vibrating strings. In fact, there are infinite amount of membranes/universes out there, and those membranes are like waves in the ocean that glide and collide with each other.

Once in a while, two universes/membranes smash head on against each other and the result of such collision is a big bang. According to this theory, big bangs happens everywhere, and all the time.

The fact that there are 100 billion stars in the Milky Way, and that there are approximately 400 billion gallexies just in the observable universe make the thought of an infinite number of big bangs and universes mind boggling. It makes the best of us feel helpless and meaningless.