T Nation

Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle

Is there a reality that is independent of our observations and experiences? I’m reading a biography of Einstein and he has trouble with the Principle, which seems to be confirmed by Quantum Mechanics: Reality does not exist except in so far as we interact with it.

Discuss?

If there is, it doesn’t matter, because I won’t be interacting with it. Such discussion, therefore, is intellectual masturbation.

[quote]Otep wrote:
If there is, it doesn’t matter, because I won’t be interacting with it. Such discussion, therefore, is intellectual masturbation.[/quote]

I look at this stuff the same way.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Otep wrote:
If there is, it doesn’t matter, because I won’t be interacting with it. Such discussion, therefore, is intellectual masturbation.

I look at this stuff the same way.[/quote]

I personally think masturbation is a good thing.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Otep wrote:
If there is, it doesn’t matter, because I won’t be interacting with it. Such discussion, therefore, is intellectual masturbation.

I look at this stuff the same way.

I personally think masturbation is a good thing.

[/quote]

Not in public with a bunch of dudes around. Time to wander over to MWA.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Otep wrote:
If there is, it doesn’t matter, because I won’t be interacting with it. Such discussion, therefore, is intellectual masturbation.

I look at this stuff the same way.

I personally think masturbation is a good thing.

[/quote]

I’ve “come” to the same conclusion.

… Or, at least I think I have.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Is there a reality that is independent of our observations and experiences? I’m reading a biography of Einstein and he has trouble with the Principle, which seems to be confirmed by Quantum Mechanics: Reality does not exist except in so far as we interact with it.

Discuss?[/quote]

I am not sure the principle of uncertainty can answer such philosophical questions about reality. Simply put, it just states that when we attempt to make a measurement of physical systems we disturb the system so that we cannot simultaneously know all properties of the system.

What other meaning to reality can there be but how we experience it? Any other description is meaningless.

Is imagination reality? Are dreams?

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Is there a reality that is independent of our observations and experiences? I’m reading a biography of Einstein and he has trouble with the Principle, which seems to be confirmed by Quantum Mechanics: Reality does not exist except in so far as we interact with it.

Discuss?[/quote]

That is the Copenhagen interpretation of the principle… those kinds of far reaching consequences do not necessarily extend from the physics.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Is there a reality that is independent of our observations and experiences? I’m reading a biography of Einstein and he has trouble with the Principle, which seems to be confirmed by Quantum Mechanics: Reality does not exist except in so far as we interact with it.

Discuss?[/quote]

The answers you seek lie in esoteric studies. Those questions are addressed there. What book are you reading? I’m curious.

It’s all bullshit.

We have much in common. There are higher pursuits for the human mind to engage in.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Otep wrote:
If there is, it doesn’t matter, because I won’t be interacting with it. Such discussion, therefore, is intellectual masturbation.

I look at this stuff the same way.[/quote]

[quote]Otep wrote:
If there is, it doesn’t matter, because I won’t be interacting with it. Such discussion, therefore, is intellectual masturbation.[/quote]

If it is a discussion it is more like group sex.

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
Otep wrote:
If there is, it doesn’t matter, because I won’t be interacting with it. Such discussion, therefore, is intellectual masturbation.

If it is a discussion it is more like group sex.[/quote]

Hmm…intellectual orgies.

If we bring an apple…where do we stick it?

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Is there a reality that is independent of our observations and experiences? I’m reading a biography of Einstein and he has trouble with the Principle, which seems to be confirmed by Quantum Mechanics: Reality does not exist except in so far as we interact with it.

Discuss?

The answers you seek lie in esoteric studies. Those questions are addressed there. What book are you reading? I’m curious.
[/quote]

Its a biography of Einstein. In it, Einstein and Heisenberg are talking and Einstein points out that the Principle leads to the conclusion that there is no extant reality outside of our consciousness, to which Einstein strongly disagrees. Heisenberg is shocked, saying that it was Einstein’s ideas of relativity that led him to the conclusion.

Here’s the book: Einstein, by Walter Isaacson
Page 332

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Is there a reality that is independent of our observations and experiences? I’m reading a biography of Einstein and he has trouble with the Principle, which seems to be confirmed by Quantum Mechanics: Reality does not exist except in so far as we interact with it.

Discuss?[/quote]

It only shows that even the most noble of scientists are prone to fall in love with their own theories and exclude other theories that contradict their own.

CONCLUSION: Theoretical physicists are not all that different from Exercise gurus :wink:

How’s that for making this pertinent to our group? :slight_smile:

It seems counterintuitive that, as space and time really are spacetime, consciousness and physical reality are consciousnessreality. If that’s the case, is the universe the mind of God?

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Is there a reality that is independent of our observations and experiences? I’m reading a biography of Einstein and he has trouble with the Principle, which seems to be confirmed by Quantum Mechanics: Reality does not exist except in so far as we interact with it.

Discuss?

The answers you seek lie in esoteric studies. Those questions are addressed there. What book are you reading? I’m curious.

Its a biography of Einstein. In it, Einstein and Heisenberg are talking and Einstein points out that the Principle leads to the conclusion that there is no extant reality outside of our consciousness, to which Einstein strongly disagrees. Heisenberg is shocked, saying that it was Einstein’s ideas of relativity that led him to the conclusion.

Here’s the book: Einstein, by Walter Isaacson
Page 332

[/quote]

I think Einstein was trying to one-up him.

Saying that Heisenberg’s understanding was inferior. Einstein believed in god as the creator. He most likely believed that the conscious was an integral yet infinite part of the universe.

Where did the conversation go from there? Where is this thread going?

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
It seems counterintuitive that, as space and time really are spacetime, consciousness and physical reality are consciousnessreality. If that’s the case, is the universe the mind of God?[/quote]

I couldn’t really get the first part of that post but as for your question; yes and no. Moreover, since your awareness to the universe is infinite and opposite, God is also a part of your consciousness. You choose to recognize it.

[quote]meangenes wrote:
Where did the conversation go from there? Where is this thread going?[/quote]

Since a great many people have more knowledge of this than me, I’m curious to see if anyone post-Heisenberg had an answer for his Principle. We have some very knowledgeable people here.

Einstein answered Heisenberg by saying that he may have reasoned in such a manner once, but ‘it is nonsense all the same.’ He could never accept the logical conclusions of his theory of Relativity.

Is this that thing about the dead cat in the box?

I say the cat is either dead or it isn’t, whether anyone is paying attention or not.

And I think that at least 50% of you guys are masturbating right now, whether anyone is paying attention or not.