T Nation

Hebbian Synapses...4 The Nerds

Bodybuilding
#1

This is kind of directed to people who know a little bit more about muscle physiology than “lift heavy and eat”. I am trying to approach this from a standpoint that is as far away from the 17-year-old-flex-reader as possible.

First off… I dont read flex.

Now, lets start getting deep. I am currently taking physiology in college and we just covered a topic called “hebbian synapses” involving neurons. The basic principal says that “If you don’t use it, you lose it: Use it more and it gets better”. It is the reason you forget some things and remember others… Think “Out of site, out of mind”.

Applying this to weight lifting, we always here about “overtraining fatigues your nervous system”, but this new information I have learned appears to contradict that. It seems that the more you use it, the better it gets(this has been proven)… So where does “overtraining” start? Obviously we know that you can hurt yourself and strain things, but as far as the nervous system is concerned… what does it take? Or is that a myth?

#2

I don’t think the concept behind “overtraining” is really contradicted by this…the idea you’re speaking of is vague with regards to time. User it or lose it…in how much time? in other words how long do I have before I “lose it”. Not only that, but you’ve mentioned nothing with regards to how long it takes neuron to learn a pattern, specifically the minimum time it needs to adapt, and maximum time before the pattern is “forgotten”. The concept of overtraining I think would be that you are stimulating your nervous system faster than it can adapt…

I’ve only studied this stuff (neurons) with respect to artificial intelligence, so I’m possibly way off, let me know what you think!

#3

I don’t think, and I could be WAY wrong, that overtraining has anything to do with adaptation over time. It obviously has something to do with a given load over a given time… however the evidence that i am presenting is showing that the more you do something, the BETTER your body gets at it, not that it has a tendency to get worse. Overtraining seems to imply that if you do something that is “too much” for “too long” your body will eventually “give up”.

How would the brain adapting or forgetting a pattern lead to over training? I am not trying to back you into a corner, I honestly don’t know the answee to my questions. This is what I can make sense of from what I have heard.

Overtraining - Doing something too much too often = nervous system fatigue/failure

Hebbian Synapses - Doing something more often = nervous system gets better at it

Those two statements seem to contradict each other… enlighten me if you can.

#4

I guess I’m seeing them as non-contradictory from a rate of repition stand point

With respect to Hebbian Synapses there’s something missing from that definition, “the more the better”, how often? and for how long? If a newbie walks into a gym and cranks out 300 deadlifts can he learn the movement better than a guy who does say, 30 a week for 10 weeks? I’d argue no, in fact I’d argue that he’s likely to learn the move improperly.

So there’s clearly a rate of repition issue here…

Perhaps it’s an issue of fatigue. In the above scenario the first lifter would fatigue quickly and start performing cheat lifts, where he compensates for his fatigued muscles by using other muscles, soon he’d be sending his system all sorts of improper messages on how the lift is to be performed and probably be worse off than had he stopped at 10 or 20 reps.

I’m just throwing darts here, hopefully someone with more of a clue than I could chime in tomorrow morning!

#5

Look for Hebbian Rule training.It is also called Synaptic Facilitation training or in the Pavel/Dragondoor community,Greasing the Groove.It has been used for quite some time.Dr Judd used it to squat about a bazillion pounds (near 600) at a body weight in the high 130’s if I recall.It refers to workouts for strength as “practice”.Lift as often as possible,lift heavy %80-%95, never to failure,lots more sets vs reps…etc.

#6

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
This is kind of directed to people who know a little bit more about muscle physiology than “lift heavy and eat”. I am trying to approach this from a standpoint that is as far away from the 17-year-old-flex-reader as possible.

First off… I dont read flex.

Now, lets start getting deep. I am currently taking physiology in college and we just covered a topic called “hebbian synapses” involving neurons. The basic principal says that “If you don’t use it, you lose it: Use it more and it gets better”. It is the reason you forget some things and remember others… Think “Out of site, out of mind”.

Applying this to weight lifting, we always here about “overtraining fatigues your nervous system”, but this new information I have learned appears to contradict that. It seems that the more you use it, the better it gets(this has been proven)… So where does “overtraining” start? Obviously we know that you can hurt yourself and strain things, but as far as the nervous system is concerned… what does it take? Or is that a myth?[/quote]

I have also heard something about this.

it is interesting, but wrt your question…no idea!

#7

Umm… I thought I made the questions clear, but I guess I will try again.

My teacher, along with the evidence, seems to suggest that the more you use your neurons, the BETTER you get at controlling them. Neurons are the connection your brain uses to make your muscles move. Now, the theory of overtraining states that if you do “too much” you will eventually fatigue your nervous system so that it won’t work as efficiently.

That seems contrary to what I have heard, I am just curious of the evidence that points to “overtraining” besides the “i feel tired” evidence.