There are some of us who like Rippetoe and some of you who like higher reps for beginners. Lets agree to disagree.
If your starting out it really doesnt matter what you do. As long as you are hiting every body part at least once a week. Don’t get caught up in reps and shit like that until your muscles overcome the shock of initial training. Just go in there and concentrate on working the muscle. change your workout every week and it will keep your body guessing always.
If you truley are a beginner then start ood habits. Louie Simmons is a great teacher… Metal Meletia also great. However that kind of training is brutal and your joints are not ready for it. Take a few months and work lock outs to build your tendon strength and prepare your joints for all out hell.
The three most important lifts you should concentrate on are Squat/Deadlift/Bench…everything else is supplemental.
I have done 3x10, 2x15, 3x8, 4x6 5x5 and I have to say that out of all of them, 2-5x5-6 seems to make most people stronger more quickly than the other rep regimens and burn the trainee out less.
I don’t think Rippetoe is a god, but he ain’t no dumbass either.
i would never insult any of you guys, but its so different when you train yourself and when you train others.
the people i train rarely have any solid foundation or background so they start from scratch.
squats deads and all the popular exercises on T-Nation can be a downfall for many people.
how? performing the exercise without supervision.
you can only teach so much through a forum.
hence, a high rep scheme for beginners is fair because it gives them many opportunities to mess up and also to correct themselves.
picking up 80 - 90% PR in bad form can only hurt them… unless, like i mentioned, they have someone guiding them.
i always make my clients perform 12 - 25 reps for every new exercise i show them. once i see that they get the technique down, i increase the weight… up to where they can only do 5 - 8 reps.
so you see, there is some logic to my madness.
but im not saying im right. there’s always a better way of doing things.
What a ridiculous discussion. 5x5 doesn’t work for a newb??? LOL…
5x5, reading and watching videos about form and nutrition, eating lots as prescribed and keeping a workout log so I knew my progression allowed me to gain 20lbs after 3 months. Its been 7 months and I haven’t injured myself except for the first time I did an OH press I had a sore shoulder for 6 days. You can learn form through videos and text I promise you.
I had never worked out properly once in my life prior.
10x3 probably works too, just get to the gym and read a shitload so you know how to train and eat. Then train and eat to failure. Just know when you start to go overboard.
more importantly…the only people qualified to argue the point are those who have read and understood each training philosophy…which at least 1 of the main protagonists here hasnt.
“The front squat might be the single best Tabata lift. Having said that, if you don’t know how to front squat correctly, the Tabata method might teach you to lift better than a thousand coaches. In the four minutes, it’s easy to get 64 to 70 reps, which teaches the nervous system better than a PowerPoint presentation.” - Dan John
Kind of contrarian to high reps means form breaks down. IMO form breaks down not from too many reps, but too much weight at that rep amount.
Regardless, as a beginner “Anything works… for a while”, pick a routine, be consistent for two/three months, and read and learn as much as you can about nutrition. KISS method, keep it simple stupid.
[quote]evansmi wrote:
I got all my newbie gains out of a 10x3 routine 3 days a week, with each day having either squat bench or dead as the main movement, and then 2 or 3 other compound movements done for higher reps and fewer sets.
Added weight to the bar on my 10x3’s every week until I couldn’t. which lasted about 3 months, and probably gained about 30-40 lbs in that time frame. don’t remember exact numbers because I kept growing afterwords, but that worked for starters.[/quote]
when did u decide you were done w/ compounds like that? I am currently doing 5x5 starting strength and adding weight/gaining weight still, but when was it that you decided to change up? The program has me keep adding til I fail to go up 3x then deload and try again. Surely I cant keep doing that forever?
[quote]bpm2000 wrote:
evansmi wrote:
I got all my newbie gains out of a 10x3 routine 3 days a week, with each day having either squat bench or dead as the main movement, and then 2 or 3 other compound movements done for higher reps and fewer sets.
Added weight to the bar on my 10x3’s every week until I couldn’t. which lasted about 3 months, and probably gained about 30-40 lbs in that time frame. don’t remember exact numbers because I kept growing afterwords, but that worked for starters.
when did u decide you were done w/ compounds like that? I am currently doing 5x5 starting strength and adding weight/gaining weight still, but when was it that you decided to change up? The program has me keep adding til I fail to go up 3x then deload and try again. Surely I cant keep doing that forever?[/quote]
I still do almost all big compound movements. I got good results adding in GHR’s for a while, but now my hamstrings are a strong point and so I’ve started doing more front squats to emphasize quads a little more. I’m not advanced enough to have a need for true isolation of anything yet. I can tell you I’m focusing more on my quads and my upperback/traps and lats because i feel those are my weakest areas, but I still stick to compound movements to take care of them.
What i was trying to say was as a true beginner, you don’t need to emphasize any areas. just try to balance everything out. When i started, all i cared about was squat bench and dead, and put little to no effort in on rowing movements, as a result, I’m not very stable in the bench. If I had had balanced out my training, instead of focusing on the traditional squat bench dead triceps and hamstrings, then I’d probably be better off.
[quote]GripAndRip wrote:
Then train and eat to failure.[/quote]
LOL. So true. When I started really eating (3800kcal/day), it was all I could do just to finish all my meals.
[quote]bpm2000 wrote:
evansmi wrote:
I got all my newbie gains out of a 10x3 routine 3 days a week, with each day having either squat bench or dead as the main movement, and then 2 or 3 other compound movements done for higher reps and fewer sets.
Added weight to the bar on my 10x3’s every week until I couldn’t. which lasted about 3 months, and probably gained about 30-40 lbs in that time frame. don’t remember exact numbers because I kept growing afterwords, but that worked for starters.
when did u decide you were done w/ compounds like that? I am currently doing 5x5 starting strength and adding weight/gaining weight still, but when was it that you decided to change up? The program has me keep adding til I fail to go up 3x then deload and try again. Surely I cant keep doing that forever?[/quote]
Stronglifts 5x5 has you move on to a new program once you hard deload twice on the squat. I’m not sure if starting strength is similar?
[quote]Asgardian wrote:
“The front squat might be the single best Tabata lift. Having said that, if you don’t know how to front squat correctly, the Tabata method might teach you to lift better than a thousand coaches. In the four minutes, it’s easy to get 64 to 70 reps, which teaches the nervous system better than a PowerPoint presentation.” - Dan John
Kind of contrarian to high reps means form breaks down. IMO form breaks down not from too many reps, but too much weight at that rep amount.
Regardless, as a beginner “Anything works… for a while”, pick a routine, be consistent for two/three months, and read and learn as much as you can about nutrition. KISS method, keep it simple stupid.[/quote]
I’ve been talking about challenging weight. a 5 reps with a true 5 rep max will typically lead to all reps with better form thne say, 15 reps with a true 15 rep max.
Let’s drop the discussion. I don’t see it as a huge deal, especially if they have an expereinced person tehre with them to keep them on the ball.
[quote]tom8658 wrote:
bpm2000 wrote:
evansmi wrote:
I got all my newbie gains out of a 10x3 routine 3 days a week, with each day having either squat bench or dead as the main movement, and then 2 or 3 other compound movements done for higher reps and fewer sets.
Added weight to the bar on my 10x3’s every week until I couldn’t. which lasted about 3 months, and probably gained about 30-40 lbs in that time frame. don’t remember exact numbers because I kept growing afterwords, but that worked for starters.
when did u decide you were done w/ compounds like that? I am currently doing 5x5 starting strength and adding weight/gaining weight still, but when was it that you decided to change up? The program has me keep adding til I fail to go up 3x then deload and try again. Surely I cant keep doing that forever?
Stronglifts 5x5 has you move on to a new program once you hard deload twice on the squat. I’m not sure if starting strength is similar?[/quote]
thx evansmi
i think starting strength has an “advanced” program but it seems similar enough that I would want to move to something else. I will check the parameters again later and see what it says.
thx
why would you ridicule a topic then go ahead and write in it?
[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:
why would you ridicule a topic then go ahead and write in it?
[/quote]
who ridiculed the thread?
I shot the sherif?
[quote]Asgardian wrote:
“The front squat might be the single best Tabata lift. Having said that, if you don’t know how to front squat correctly, the Tabata method might teach you to lift better than a thousand coaches. In the four minutes, it’s easy to get 64 to 70 reps, which teaches the nervous system better than a PowerPoint presentation.” - Dan John
Kind of contrarian to high reps means form breaks down. IMO form breaks down not from too many reps, but too much weight at that rep amount.
[/quote]
The thing is though that I doubt that DJ would tell a rank beginner to do Tabata front squats. Yes, you may get 64-70 reps in a four minute time period, but unless you are doing all of those reps in perfect form, then all it’s going to do is teach you bad form.
The old saying that “practice makes perfect” isn’t true. The correct saying is “PERFECT practice makes perfect”. In other words your nervous system gets good at doing whatever you practice a lot. But, if your form is poor, then it’ll just get good at poor form. You really have to make an effort (at least in the beginning) to make certain that your form is as close to perfect as possible.
Fatiguing the muscles and taxing the cardiovascular system with things like Tabata would be a poor method choice if just trying to learn the movement correctly. Great for conditioning later on down the road, but poor for actually learning the form.
[quote]
Regardless, as a beginner “Anything works… for a while”, pick a routine, be consistent for two/three months, and read and learn as much as you can about nutrition. KISS method, keep it simple stupid.[/quote]
I agree. Though don’t set arbitrary time limits on routines. Just keep using them until they stop producing results.
Some of us, myslef included, only learn through trial and error. Thomas Edison didn’t invent the lightbulb on the first try; he found hundreds (if not thousands) of ways NOT to make a lightbulb first.
What has helped me the most so far (and I am by no means and expert or trainer… but I have been able to put on some noticieable mass and strength) is keeping a Log. Don’t go down to the gym and start doing some random merry-go-round. Pick a realistic plan (not from a magazine) stick to it for at least 6-weeks and KEEP A DAMN LOG, so you know how many reps/weight you did last time and can challenge yourself to do one extra rep or 5 more pounds the next workout.
Just being able to see this data progression (even if you yourself don’t notice a change in the mirror) can do wonders for your motivation and will keep you at it instead of getting discouraged and giving up. Spreadsheets are an awesome tool!
[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:
i would never insult any of you guys[/quote]
Ironic statement of the century.
Seriously. We keep talking about 50 year old women and how well 3x12 or whatever it is you are always raving about works for them. I think that explains a lot.
i love six reps, that is the number for me. heavy but still enough volume for me to really feel it. i havent got anything to back this up but i think a low rep program is not bad for a beginner. since at first all they gain is strength and no muscle.
i never liked pre packaged programs. is is uneedfuly complicated. what is so difficult about figuring out multiple sets of compound exercises with a few sets of isolation?