Anyways, the OP was asking a question, I answered, you didn’t like it and you answered with lol.
You don;t know how pro bodybuilders train 24/7. You don’t, that is obviously the point.
I love conversation, I hate useless points. OP has a question, answer it or don’t, matters little. You think I am wrong, that’s fine, we can agree to disagree.
Why do you think he gets pain? Bad form? lack of stretching?
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
[quote]icyhotpatch1 wrote:
I do each bodypart 1x a week. At the beginning of each day, I will start with my heavy movements listed in the initial post. For these I go heavy, 3 sets of 5 across.
Here’s an example of my bench press warm-up (since wrist pain is the most persistent thing I feel):
45x10
95x5
135x5
185x3
WORK SETS: 230x5 for 3 sets
It may be very likely I’m not sufficiently warming up. I am not doing 5/3/1. And JFG is right to say that when I move the exercises to later in the routine, pain sometimes still occurs, which is what leads me to believe it could be form problems. I’m a former Starting Strength guy (yes), so I’ve done these lifts literally thousands of times. So I would think it might be something other than bad form, but I won’t rule that out.[/quote]
Right. This is your problem. That is NOT a warm up (well it’s about 1/10 of a decent warm up). You need to get yourself a 5-10 minute dynamic warm up to prepare your joints for explosive movement. Look up mobility wod, or anything from Cressey or Mike Robertson. Really, you have 5 minutes to spare to save yourself chronic nagging injuries. Training is also less than optimal if you’re body is not primed for it. [/quote]
Um no you dont.
You CAN. And that stuff is all well and good. But to prance around the gym for 10 minutes to get blood flowing and joints lubed as a mandatory recommendation is a bit of a stretch (get it ;)…)
[/quote]
Have you even read Cressey’s stuff? Who said anything about prancing around or stretching?
Sure, it’s not mandatory, but any time you ever seen anyone in these forums with shoulder pain on this, or hip pain on that, they have a very minimal warm up, while you never hear complaints from the guys who read a little bit about anatomy and mobility, assess and correct their postural imbalances and learn how to properly prepare their body for moving heavy weights. [/quote]
I know what Cressey’s stuff is about and I dont think it’s bad at all. But a huge majority of guys who are injury free do NOT do that type of stuff to warm up. And I didn’t say anything about stretching muscles before lifting weights. I said telling the guy he HAS to do Cressey’s stuff to prevent injury is a bit of a stretch.
[quote]JFG wrote:
Really? 5/3/1 has a 3 weeks on, 1 week de load. You think that is done by mistake?
They are not relevant because you don’t understand them.
You think what works for you, applies for everyone else?
The OP has pain after 4 weeks when he starts with the movement, but it lessens when he bumps it down. He never said they go away. All he is doing, is delaying the pain, not eliminating it. So, bumping it down, is useless.
If you want to dispute it, do so. With a conversation. Saying they are not relevant is not a dispute. Say why, explain it and defend it.
OP, deload. You will be fine. Probably stretch more also.
[/quote]
ALL of the big, strong people I know take a lighter day when they feel they need it. They do NOT have scheduled deloads (unless we’re talking about the tapering of volume and intensity leading up to a powerlifting meet), nor do they follow any of the programs you listed. The thing you have to understand about written programs is that they need to be able to work for a large number of people, the majority of whom do not have any body awareness to speak of. This necessitates including planned periods of rest.
OP, you could also try rotating your heavy exercises. IE week one bench heavy, week two incline heavy, week three bench heavy, etc. That is in addition to warming up more thoroughly, whether you do it in the form of a dynamic warmup or simply more warmup sets. And by all means, if you feel worn down, take it easy for a day or a week or whatever you need.
Before pressing days, I like to do the following for warmup (as an example):
Modified YTWL (for lack of a better name) x 10 with 5-8# DBs - I do this in a modified way by doing Ts first, once with palms down and then again with thumbs up, then Ys in the traditional way, then by raising the DBs straight back by my sides with the palms down, focusing on external rotation (trying to make thumbs point up) and scapular retraction. I got this from my physical therapist and really like it.
External rotation x 10 with same DBs
Band traction on shoulders x 30 sec each side
Dynamic tricep/lat stretch - basically looks like you’re throwing exaggerated uppercuts.
Then I’ll foam roll my back cause it feels good and my back is usually tight from sitting at a desk all day.
After that I’ll do a few (usually 3-5) sets with a light weight (Ex. 135 for bench) til I’m feeling good, then I’ll start working up to my work sets.
I also rotate my heavy pressing exercises every week. Bench heavy one week, heavy military the next.
I do all of this because I’ve had shoulder and pec minor issues in the past, and it’s helped me get back to heavy pressing with no pain and to stay pain-free. I’m not saying you should or need to do all of this, as I’m sure this is excessive for some people, but it works for me.
Bonez’s suggestion of pre-exhausting is also a very good one in a bodybuilding context. It serves to both work the targeted muscle as well as to further prepare it for the heavier work to come. John Meadows is a big proponent of this.
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]overstand wrote:
[quote]JFG wrote:
When you train the exact same way, over an extended period, you will injure yourself. Learn what your body can handle.
[/quote]
This is what I was disagreeing with. If you are getting injured after training heavy for 4 weeks, you are doing something wrong. Usually the issue is crappy form, but since he doesn’t have a problem if he goes heavy later in his workout, the problem is most likely inadequate warmup.
OP: Don’t be afraid to do 4 or 5 warmup sets. On bench day, I stretch really good, do some windmills with 5 pound plates, then I bench the bar for a set, 135 for 2 sets and 185 for a set before I start my working sets. Taking an extra 10-15 minutes to warm up will go a long way towards keeping you healthy down the road.[/quote]
No doubt. 4 weeks is a very marginal time to be on a program. How does doing the same thing over an extended period of time lead to injury?? I have, and know plenty of people, who have trained the same way for years and not had injuries. I don’t see the connection here.
And when did 5/3/1 with it’s weekly deloads become gospel for bodybuilding? What pro bodybuilders do 5/3/1 and deload every fourth week, I would like to know.[/quote]
Christian Thibaudeau recommends deloading or switching programs every 6 weeks for beginners and roughly every 4 weeks for advanced lifters (sourced from his beginners articles).
Edit:
Cited: “A beginner should stick to a program for 6-8 weeks, while a more advanced individual might have to change it every 3-4 weeks. Some very advanced individuals actually need to change it as often as every two weeks to maximize progress. But for a beginner, I recommend sticking to a program for 6 weeks before switching things around.”
[quote]Zooguido wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]overstand wrote:
[quote]JFG wrote:
When you train the exact same way, over an extended period, you will injure yourself. Learn what your body can handle.
[/quote]
This is what I was disagreeing with. If you are getting injured after training heavy for 4 weeks, you are doing something wrong. Usually the issue is crappy form, but since he doesn’t have a problem if he goes heavy later in his workout, the problem is most likely inadequate warmup.
OP: Don’t be afraid to do 4 or 5 warmup sets. On bench day, I stretch really good, do some windmills with 5 pound plates, then I bench the bar for a set, 135 for 2 sets and 185 for a set before I start my working sets. Taking an extra 10-15 minutes to warm up will go a long way towards keeping you healthy down the road.[/quote]
No doubt. 4 weeks is a very marginal time to be on a program. How does doing the same thing over an extended period of time lead to injury?? I have, and know plenty of people, who have trained the same way for years and not had injuries. I don’t see the connection here.
And when did 5/3/1 with it’s weekly deloads become gospel for bodybuilding? What pro bodybuilders do 5/3/1 and deload every fourth week, I would like to know.[/quote]
Christian Thibaudeau recommends deloading or switching programs every 6 weeks for beginners and roughly every 4 weeks for advanced lifters (sourced from his beginners articles).
Edit:
Cited: “A beginner should stick to a program for 6-8 weeks, while a more advanced individual might have to change it every 3-4 weeks. Some very advanced individuals actually need to change it as often as every two weeks to maximize progress. But for a beginner, I recommend sticking to a program for 6 weeks before switching things around.”[/quote]
How old is that quote?
I think you might be misunderstanding what he means by “changing” the program. I think he’s talking about small changes, like altering volume, load, exercise selection, etc, not a wholesale philosophy change.
If he isn’t, then I disagree with the quote entirely. I don’t know any big and strong people that change their entire program every 4 MONTHS, let alone 4 weeks.
[quote]Steel Nation wrote:
How old is that quote?
I think you might be misunderstanding what he means by “changing” the program. I think he’s talking about small changes, like altering volume, load, exercise selection, etc, not a wholesale philosophy change.
If he isn’t, then I disagree with the quote entirely. I don’t know any big and strong people that change their entire program every 4 MONTHS, let alone 4 weeks.[/quote]
That’s what i was implying. Nobody here has suggested that the OP start with 5x5, then 5 weeks later do 5/3/1, then after that switch to TBT, then 5 more weeks later do a 5-day body part split.
That’s absurd, lol.
Edit: Note how I, myself, said “deload”. Not “start a new program every 4 weeks”. Yes, I did say switch programs but that wasn’t meant as “make drastic changes in training methods” because of the fact, as CT says early on in that same article, that you need to give your body time to adapt to that method of training in whatever form it may be.
[quote]Zooguido wrote:
[quote]Steel Nation wrote:
How old is that quote?
I think you might be misunderstanding what he means by “changing” the program. I think he’s talking about small changes, like altering volume, load, exercise selection, etc, not a wholesale philosophy change.
If he isn’t, then I disagree with the quote entirely. I don’t know any big and strong people that change their entire program every 4 MONTHS, let alone 4 weeks.[/quote]
That’s what i was implying. Nobody here has suggested that the OP start with 5x5, then 5 weeks later do 5/3/1, then after that switch to TBT, then 5 more weeks later do a 5-day body part split.
That’s absurd, lol.
Edit: Note how I, myself, said “deload”. Not “start a new program every 4 weeks”. Yes, I did say switch programs but that wasn’t meant as “make drastic changes in training methods” because of the fact, as CT says early on in that same article, that you need to give your body time to adapt to that method of training in whatever form it may be.[/quote]
Gotcha.
[quote]JFG wrote:
Anyways, the OP was asking a question, I answered, you didn’t like it and you answered with lol.
You don;t know how pro bodybuilders train 24/7. You don’t, that is obviously the point.
I love conversation, I hate useless points. OP has a question, answer it or don’t, matters little. You think I am wrong, that’s fine, we can agree to disagree.
Why do you think he gets pain? Bad form? lack of stretching? [/quote]
There are tons of examples of pro bodybuilders routines out there in magazines, videos etc. and none that i’ve seen are 5/3/1. Not Saying it’s a bad program, but 5/3/1 and deload are not the answer to every problem, especially bodybuilding.
Without seeing OP’s form, how can anyone say bad form? Video OP? Most likely not warming up correctly like others have said since he can do the movement pain free after pre-exausting. But certainly 5/3/1 and deloading isn’t going to fix anything if form is bad with insufficient warmup.
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]JFG wrote:
Anyways, the OP was asking a question, I answered, you didn’t like it and you answered with lol.
You don;t know how pro bodybuilders train 24/7. You don’t, that is obviously the point.
I love conversation, I hate useless points. OP has a question, answer it or don’t, matters little. You think I am wrong, that’s fine, we can agree to disagree.
Why do you think he gets pain? Bad form? lack of stretching? [/quote]
There are tons of examples of pro bodybuilders routines out there in magazines, videos etc. and none that i’ve seen are 5/3/1. Not Saying it’s a bad program, but 5/3/1 and deload are not the answer to every problem, especially bodybuilding.
Without seeing OP’s form, how can anyone say bad form? Video OP? Most likely not warming up correctly like others have said since he can do the movement pain free after pre-exausting. But certainly 5/3/1 and deloading isn’t going to fix anything if form is bad with insufficient warmup.
[/quote]
Well 5/3/1 does outline a general warmup so it would help in that respect.
I’m tired of this deloading craze though.
I actually just started 5/3/1 after a bodybuilding split I was on (feeling the need to focus more on strength as a means of progression for the time being) and, in another thread, I mentioned I fucked up my DL max really bad (only tried them for about a month on a go at SS about a year back and my max was like 200lbs, but even then I realized how much easier they were for me compared to everything else and decided to ditch them in favor of squats which I needed much more improvement on, and I think I was right as far as squat carryover being greater due to my weakness there) and ended up doing my top set of 5 for my first week 24reps (it was only 190lbs and I stopped more b/c of how ridiculous it was than fatique…
so I have no idea what failure would have been). At any rate, I’ll probably bump up my max by 50-100lbs for the next cycle so it is a lot less ridiculous.
My question, however, is that I feel my other lifts will be set up a lot better (1RMs estimated off of RMs very similar movements that I did just last week - sometimes pre-exhausted). I am uncomfortable with the idea of a deload week.
I never really feel the need to take a day off, let alone deload, but I would really like to follow this program to a T and I feel like removing the deload weeks might fuck up one of the central tenants of the program (being that aggressive weight selections leads to earlier and more frequent plateaus).
I know this is the bodybuilding forum, but has anybody ever taken some time to focus more on strength (and I am using the bodybuilding template from one of the articles here b/c, even though I want to focus more on strength, I do not want to neglect rear delts, etc. and the assistance work in his ebook is not satisfactory to say the least - it isn’t great but the up in volume to four straight sets - as opposed to working up to one top set like I have been doing - I think will be a good change of pace and at least help me maintain some aesthetic balance while focusing on uppinng my core lifts).
I don’t know where I went with all this, but to recap: 1) not comfortable with idea of 5/3/1 deloads - anybody using the program to temporarily focus on strength have any experience with removing them, or how to handle them? and 2) anybody have any experience with the bodybuilding version in general? (I am also trying to allow for more rest time between sets seeing as the bodybuilding program I was on, I wasn’t takin gany rest at all and, while it was very useful, I feel like I really need to work on uppin some of my lifts and come back to full on bodybuilding later on)
Edit: BTW, I am a novice if that isn’t obvious lol
[quote]Steel Nation wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]JFG wrote:
Anyways, the OP was asking a question, I answered, you didn’t like it and you answered with lol.
You don;t know how pro bodybuilders train 24/7. You don’t, that is obviously the point.
I love conversation, I hate useless points. OP has a question, answer it or don’t, matters little. You think I am wrong, that’s fine, we can agree to disagree.
Why do you think he gets pain? Bad form? lack of stretching? [/quote]
There are tons of examples of pro bodybuilders routines out there in magazines, videos etc. and none that i’ve seen are 5/3/1. Not Saying it’s a bad program, but 5/3/1 and deload are not the answer to every problem, especially bodybuilding.
Without seeing OP’s form, how can anyone say bad form? Video OP? Most likely not warming up correctly like others have said since he can do the movement pain free after pre-exausting. But certainly 5/3/1 and deloading isn’t going to fix anything if form is bad with insufficient warmup.
[/quote]
Well 5/3/1 does outline a general warmup so it would help in that respect.
I’m tired of this deloading craze though.[/quote]
De loading is not a craze. I’ve read articles from Rader (the original Ironman publisher) about that. But I think they called it “cycle” back then. Heck, articles from the '30’s talked about it.
Maiden, please get off the 5/3/1. It was just an example. Its a strength program. That’s why you dont see BB doing it. No big deal. Yes, I know which forum this is, but I was just answering the OP’s question. But following a program for a few weeks and saying it doesn’t work or “I want to change this and this” attitude, is well, stupid. Give it time or change. Pretty simple to me.
MickyGee: If you dont agree with the program, don’t do it. You seem to be complicating a simplistic program. Go to the proper forum and ask which routine would better suit your need?!?!
JFG - no offense, but I am good on your advice… thanks
None taken. Just thought that the powerlifitng section might have better answers then me.
[quote]JFG wrote:
Maiden, please get off the 5/3/1. It was just an example. Its a strength program. That’s why you dont see BB doing it. No big deal. Yes, I know which forum this is, but I was just answering the OP’s question. But following a program for a few weeks and saying it doesn’t work or “I want to change this and this” attitude, is well, stupid. Give it time or change. Pretty simple to me.
[/quote]
I disagree that doing the same thing over an extended period of time leads to injury. I think it leads to getting better at what you’re doing. Ofcoarse you may need to back off every once in a while, but scheduling monthly deloads is not necessary for bodybuilding IMO. As far as OP maybe deloading is the answer who knows, but it could be a number of things especially form breaking down under heavier weight but we have no idea of without video.
I did not say anything about following a program for a few weeks and saying it didn’t work. Not sure where you are going with this or if you’re reffering to someone else.
[quote]MickyGee wrote:
I actually just started 5/3/1 after a bodybuilding split I was on (feeling the need to focus more on strength as a means of progression for the time being) and, in another thread, I mentioned I fucked up my DL max really bad (only tried them for about a month on a go at SS about a year back and my max was like 200lbs, but even then I realized how much easier they were for me compared to everything else and decided to ditch them in favor of squats which I needed much more improvement on, and I think I was right as far as squat carryover being greater due to my weakness there) and ended up doing my top set of 5 for my first week 24reps (it was only 190lbs and I stopped more b/c of how ridiculous it was than fatique…
so I have no idea what failure would have been). At any rate, I’ll probably bump up my max by 50-100lbs for the next cycle so it is a lot less ridiculous.
My question, however, is that I feel my other lifts will be set up a lot better (1RMs estimated off of RMs very similar movements that I did just last week - sometimes pre-exhausted). I am uncomfortable with the idea of a deload week.
I never really feel the need to take a day off, let alone deload, but I would really like to follow this program to a T and I feel like removing the deload weeks might fuck up one of the central tenants of the program (being that aggressive weight selections leads to earlier and more frequent plateaus).
I know this is the bodybuilding forum, but has anybody ever taken some time to focus more on strength (and I am using the bodybuilding template from one of the articles here b/c, even though I want to focus more on strength, I do not want to neglect rear delts, etc. and the assistance work in his ebook is not satisfactory to say the least - it isn’t great but the up in volume to four straight sets - as opposed to working up to one top set like I have been doing - I think will be a good change of pace and at least help me maintain some aesthetic balance while focusing on uppinng my core lifts).
I don’t know where I went with all this, but to recap: 1) not comfortable with idea of 5/3/1 deloads - anybody using the program to temporarily focus on strength have any experience with removing them, or how to handle them? and 2) anybody have any experience with the bodybuilding version in general? (I am also trying to allow for more rest time between sets seeing as the bodybuilding program I was on, I wasn’t takin gany rest at all and, while it was very useful, I feel like I really need to work on uppin some of my lifts and come back to full on bodybuilding later on)
Edit: BTW, I am a novice if that isn’t obvious lol
[/quote]
I have a few people using the 5/3/1 weights/reps for the main lifts with no planned deloads.
Modifications/rules they are using/following:
These people are fairly well experienced lifters though. All are at least solid intermediates.
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]JFG wrote:
Maiden, please get off the 5/3/1. It was just an example. Its a strength program. That’s why you dont see BB doing it. No big deal. Yes, I know which forum this is, but I was just answering the OP’s question. But following a program for a few weeks and saying it doesn’t work or “I want to change this and this” attitude, is well, stupid. Give it time or change. Pretty simple to me.
[/quote]
I disagree that doing the same thing over an extended period of time leads to injury. I think it leads to getting better at what you’re doing. Ofcoarse you may need to back off every once in a while, but scheduling monthly deloads is not necessary for bodybuilding IMO. As far as OP maybe deloading is the answer who knows, but it could be a number of things especially form breaking down under heavier weight but we have no idea of without video.
I did not say anything about following a program for a few weeks and saying it didn’t work. Not sure where you are going with this or if you’re reffering to someone else.
[/quote]
yeah, came out wrong and not at you. Sorry about that.
I’m on my 2nd 5/3/1 cycle (monday will be my 5/3/1 week) and I didn’t deload the first cycle, and don’t plan to deload at the end of this (unless I feel I really need it…) I’m also being aggressive with the weights going to the last rep but i haven’t got stuck (yet.) I guess whenever i’ll need a deload week i’ll just take it, but untill then i’ll plow forward.
Ps: My strength levels aren’t amazing so I can prolly get away with this for a while idk, but im also keeping my calories and protein high.
I’ve been wave-loading my 5/3/1 experiment:
Week 1
Bench 3x5
Squat 3x3
Mil 5-3-1
Deadlift Deload
Week 2
Bench 3x3
Squat 5-3-1
Mil Deload
Deadlift 3x5
Week 3
Bench 5-3-1
Squat Deload
Mil 3x5
Deadlift 3x3
Week 4
Bench Deload
Squat 3x5
Mil 3x3
Deadlift 5-3-1
Anyone else done/do it like this? Or is this the norm?
[quote]Liv92 wrote:
I’m on my 2nd 5/3/1 cycle (monday will be my 5/3/1 week) and I didn’t deload the first cycle, and don’t plan to deload at the end of this (unless I feel I really need it…) I’m also being aggressive with the weights going to the last rep but i haven’t got stuck (yet.) I guess whenever i’ll need a deload week i’ll just take it, but untill then i’ll plow forward.
Ps: My strength levels aren’t amazing so I can prolly get away with this for a while idk, but im also keeping my calories and protein high. [/quote]
See the good thing with 5/3/1 is, you don’t really need to take those deloads early on. You have a basline number to hit. For example if the program says you are benching 200 for 3 or more today, but you know you can hit 6 or 7 with that weight, then you can stop at 3 and leave it at that. Which will give you the chance to get some recovery in for your next workout.
Right now I am doing the deloads as the program says, as last time around I didn’t and know how that went. I’m also applying the progression to my main accessory lift.
However if you are increasing your lifts by 2% each 4 week block then after 6 months you will be hitting bang on your real 1RM’s. In which case, I would say it is a very good idea to incorporate those deloads in there.
At the end of the day, you aren’t doing the program exact unless you are doing it as outlined by Jim but slight adjustments early on really can’t hurt you too much.
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
I’ve been wave-loading my 5/3/1 experiment:
Week 1
Bench 3x5
Squat 3x3
Mil 5-3-1
Deadlift Deload
Week 2
Bench 3x3
Squat 5-3-1
Mil Deload
Deadlift 3x5
Week 3
Bench 5-3-1
Squat Deload
Mil 3x5
Deadlift 3x3
Week 4
Bench Deload
Squat 3x5
Mil 3x3
Deadlift 5-3-1
Anyone else done/do it like this? Or is this the norm?[/quote]
I like the way it looks. Makes sense to me.