Heart Structural Changes from High Testosterone Levels

Is it true high levels of testosterone can lead to some change in the structure of the heart, some part of it to grow bigger?
Ive read before this but it was in a study involving high doses of AAS.

However my brother told me some of his costudents before that had natural high levels of test without taking anything has developed some heart condition

You don’t develop a heart condition without any exogenous variable (such as drugs… say veeeerrry high levels of testosterone… 5000ng/dl+ for prolonged periods of time for reference… granted there are genetic susceptibilities, individualistic threshold points etc… cardiotoxic drug use such as cocaine, heavy recreational amphetamine abuse, certain chemotherapeutic meds and whatnot)

Cardiac myocytes do contain androgen receptors… and I’m far too jet lagged at the moment to finish the post in general… but yes, very high levels of testosterone/AAS may/probably induce morphological structural alterations in the myocardium that may predispose one to lethal arrhythmia

Jet lag typically lasts 5-7 days for me… I’m not one who gets over it lightly

@unreal24278 What concerns me is whether TRT dosages of testosterone can induce changes in the heart

I think the studies are fairly clear that both very low and very high androgen levels are a negative for cardiovascular/heart health. Its less clear near the edges of the ranges of ‘normal’ testosterone levels…say 400 or 1100. There is a narrative in the TRT community that these ranges are considered to be inaccurate, maybe ‘Fake News’. And that anyone less than 500 total test…‘has the testosterone level of a 70yr old’. And this narrative feeds directly into a man’s biggest insecurities thus scaring many young men into TRT that they probably dont need. I feel my most ‘healthy’ in a range 500-800 total test. I ‘enjoy’ how I feel the most around 1000. Anything above that and I can sometimes feel great but it feels unnatural and sides are hard to manage. We won’t know the outcome of the TRT boom’s effect on the heart until the wave of middle aged men who have started TRT over the past 15 years become seniors. When/if i’m 80 what will it be like to have a testosterone level around 1000? Maybe nature lowers our androgen levels for a reason.

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No… not unless you’ve got a congenital condition such as Marfans syndrome… certain types of EDS etc

Once again you’re talking about physiologic doses. There’s no reason to think having normal T levels would induce cardiomyopathy… if this was the case men everywhere would be dying…

I know a dude who has congenital HCM, didn’t find out until he was about 40 because… he went into cardiac arrest randomly upon exertion (he loved and still loves exercise), is always hiking, running, biking etc… probably not the greatest idea but hey… if that’s what makes him happy then so be it!

How are they difficult to manage? I can be at 1400-1600 year round without any sides (absent of ancillary use)

My HCT doesn’t creep up, lipids and BP are fine… doesn’t mean a net negative effect doesn’t occur, in just stating that 14-1600, whilst high in the realm of TRT is chump change compared to many of the dosages employed year round by athletes and bodybuilders. 1100… try 6000 YEAR ROUND, with durations of higher levels involved… this is what induces harm over time

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I think for everyone optimal levels are different to feel good at. I had 560 total t and just 3 days ago started trt with that levels. For me they were not enough and I was feeling like crap at those levels

Depends on individualistic setpoints

What was free/bioavailable T

Furthermore neurological dysregulation can many a times be the culprit for feeling shitty, in which case trt wont help. It’s impossible to dictate where you’ll feel best at/what protocol, thus it’s merely trial and error. I’m sure you’ll figure out what’s right for you down the line :slight_smile:

Did you have other parameters (thyroid, adrenals etc) ruled out as primary cause of pathology?

The thyroid and adrenals are so-so not perfect not bad but the doctor I consulted who is very experienced in hormone management said not to touch them for now and start only testosterone, then add HCG for fertility, some vitamins and minerals and for now thats it.
I’ve tried many other things before TRT but lets not deviate the topic :slight_smile:

By the way I know its only day 3 but I start to feel more energy and the testosterone I use has some propionate in it so it is not unlogical to feel something

Im not saying it’s not possible for some people to be fine at T levels between 1000-2000. However, I highly doubt across the general population that longevity would be positively affected by having those high levels be the norm. We are essentially performing a very large scale experiment by the mass prescribing of testosterone. And we won’t truly know the effects of this until 20-30 years down the road when we can get a better picture of mortality rates and causes. Also, it’s important to consider that longevity and quality of life aren’t necessarily correlated for everyone. Either way, we won’t know until we know.

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Are we though? Testosterone has been a prescribable med since 1935, numerous meta analysis indicate the rate of death amongst the populace on TRT is roughly equatable or equal to that of the norm.

For a healthy man… 1000 is fine provided haematological parameters aren’t particularly impacted… 2000 is a bit too far for my taste (depending on free/bioavailable T)

A large scale study on ref ranges found the top 5 percent of men were 1000ng/dl, to 1 percent was like… 1350… these men aren’t risking death due to natural physiology

Do I believe it’s the healthiest option for longevity? No… certainly not… do I believe a TT of 1500, a healthy lifestyle and diet out triumphs the longevity of a normal sedentary male with subpar lifestyle habits? Absolutely

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It’s certainly possible, testosterone propionate kicks in very quickly. However the duration of action is incredibly short :frowning:

Yes but the sustanon has other esters as well :slight_smile: I inject daily

@unreal24278
Won’t lifting weights for most of your life eventually cause LVH to some extent regardless of T levels?

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Yes, of varying degrees based on genetics and intensity. However the morphological adaptations in terms of cardiac output/efficiency when compared to cardio adaptive mechanism via hypertrophy initiated by AAS/cardiotoxic drug use appears to be different.

Both degrees of LVH appear to increase the risk for atrial fibrillation long term… however non exercise mediated cardiac hypertrophy also increases the risk for VF, heart failure etc

The type of exercise that will lead to the greatest degree of morphological adaptation is any that combines elements of aerobic AND anaerobic training (distance cycling particularly comes to mind)… the cardiac dimensions of some of these guys are massive… legitimately overlapping diagnostic criteria for dialated/hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. The same can be said for strength athletes, however it’s far more common in cyclists regardless of drug use

The last data point I saw was that between 2010-2013 testosterone prescriptions doubled. Did the number of clinically hypogonadal men double? Or did hormone clinics start prescribing to anyone with ‘symptoms’ of low T with marginal or higher T levels? We are most definitely carrying out an experiment on a segment of the population that would previously have never been prescribed T.

I think part of it is a function of people, like many of us on this forum, who are managing our health from a viewpoint of optimizing quality of life and not just waiting to get sick. So it’s not inherently bad, but it is unprecedented. The ultimate outcome is being played out as we speak…

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@blizzardtest What is the alternative to stay put and suffer with low quality of life? I couldnt withstand that much longer so I decided to take my chances

I don’t know the answer to that. It’s a question that really doesn’t have a definitive answer. For some, it’s TRT. For others, not. I definitely agree with treating symptoms and optimizing health versus just treating a number. It’s important to be an informed consumer tho. Thankfully, forums like this exist. If you can filter out some of the noise, there’s a lot of invaluable experience and great information to be found here.

Is there any feasible/reasonable way to know if our heart is being damaged by TRT? I get bloodwork done often, but obviously that isn’t relevant to this.

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You could get frequent echocardiograms and track any changes. But I don’t know if that falls under ‘feasible’.