Healthcare Bill Passes Senate

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Go on thinking that socialism is your enemy, but remember, you’re living under capitalism now.[/quote]

Please, show me this capitalism you speak of.

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Go on thinking that socialism is your enemy, but remember, you’re living under capitalism now.[/quote]

Hi Ryan,

I have to disagree. Your statement–“you’re living under capitalism now”–is simply not true. In Free Market Capitalism the MARKET sets prices and interest rates and etc. In our current system those are all set by a strong centralized private bank (the Federal Reserve). We have not had a true Free Market for quite some time in this country.

Now, the rest of your arguments may hold water, but don’t call our current system capitalism when it is anything but.

Best,
-David

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
Unfortunately, I see this shiny happy piece of shit being passed into law along party lines, just as it made it out of commitee. “Soak the rich!”, Yea!, make 'em pay their “fair share”!

Call it a sur tax, call it an income tax increase, it’s the same thing. In the middle of what is being described as the greatest economic downturn since the great depression, we’re going to pass a major tax increase? (But Bigflamer, it’s on the rich! fuck the rich Bigflamer!!) But the reality of the matter is, that this will effect many job creators, including many small business owners.

I am sick and tired of this bullshit. No, it won’t affect job creation. It never has. Chart of top marginal tax rate:

Notice when it was real high? We we hurtin’ those years, weren’t we? Oh, wait.

Here’s a chart of national income going to the top 0.1% of earners. Where’s all that job creation that should have resulted? How rich do they have to get before it kicks in?

Not that I am arguing for 60%+ marginal rates.

By the way, here’s wages and productivity:

You talk shit because this would not affect you financially. Wait until someone dips into your wallet to pay for someone else’s shit. You might think differently, but then you are the socialist.[/quote]

Ryan is but an idealistic young student. You simply must factor this in when discussing the issues with him.

Ryan~ I look forward to responding to your post later. I get a bit tied up at this time of night with kids baths and getting ready for bed and whatnot. Later

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
Unfortunately, I see this shiny happy piece of shit being passed into law along party lines, just as it made it out of commitee. “Soak the rich!”, Yea!, make 'em pay their “fair share”!

Call it a sur tax, call it an income tax increase, it’s the same thing. In the middle of what is being described as the greatest economic downturn since the great depression, we’re going to pass a major tax increase? (But Bigflamer, it’s on the rich! fuck the rich Bigflamer!!) But the reality of the matter is, that this will effect many job creators, including many small business owners.

I am sick and tired of this bullshit. No, it won’t affect job creation. It never has. Chart of top marginal tax rate:

Notice when it was real high? We we hurtin’ those years, weren’t we? Oh, wait.

Here’s a chart of national income going to the top 0.1% of earners. Where’s all that job creation that should have resulted? How rich do they have to get before it kicks in?

Not that I am arguing for 60%+ marginal rates.

By the way, here’s wages and productivity:

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/real_wage_productivity_gap.jpg [/quote]

Wages and productivity of what supplied by whom.

Some caveats:

US government statistics are lying lies and have been increasingly so since the 80, especially when it comes to producitivity and other economic data.

Then, to look at a region is arbitrary. If you look at it in world wide context rising productivity means higher wages. The US is simply, ahem, to small to offset the changes in Asia. By far.

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Don’t like those numbers, eh? Carry on with your tantrum.

And no, I don’t like it when politicians use taxpayers dollars to waste on a murderous military, or to give to rich people, as they presently do. Go on thinking that socialism is your enemy, but remember, you’re living under capitalism now.[/quote]

lets see, government controlled fiat money and interest rates, heavy regulations on food and drugs, nationalized education, huge part of the medical industry run and regulated by the states, minimum wage laws, government licensing, enormous, basically historically unheard of, taxes, labor related costs enforced by the government distorting the market.

You look at all that and you think:

Capitalism!

Well, I’m reading this off the AP site-

Obama supports a government-run insurance plan to compete with private insurers, but he says he doesn’t want to overturn the system of employer-sponsored health benefits that has served middle-class families for better than half a century. He wants the legislation to be fully paid for and the total cost kept around $1 trillion over 10 years.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jlMpJGn28kqCcgU-aGcYE_ZHW-ywD99F6EG84

I don’t have a problem with this. The amount of people uninsured is ghastly, and the US ranks 37th in health care in the world. Fuckin’ Costa Rica is ahead of us.

I don’t want universal healthcare to be the only option- I like mine just fine. However, I don’t see a cheaper but not as good government run program to be evil because in the system we have, not having health care will kill you. This country is better than that.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Fuckin’ Costa Rica is ahead of us.

[/quote]
…in socialism.

So the fuck what?!

Also reading this- http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20090715-711910.html

I’m impressed by both Wal-Mart and Target. I used to give Wal-Mart shit because they wouldn’t let their workers unionize, but now I believe that they don’t need it anyway- Wal-Mart treats them pretty well, and doesn’t go against bills like this (which surprised me).

However, their stuff is still shitty so I ain’t shopping there. But they’re scoring points at least.

If you take the time to read into it you will find that this “option” is not really an option at all.

And just for the hell of it, where we going to come up with 1 trillion? Even tho its beginning to look more and more like 1.5 trillion.

This is just another power grab by the government. the only problem is members on both sides of congress want to puke at the sight of the cost. this thing will be DOA.

I am willing to bet that you would still prefer to have surgery here in the US than Costa Rica.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

I don’t have a problem with this. The amount of people uninsured is ghastly, and the US ranks 37th in health care in the world. Fuckin’ Costa Rica is ahead of us.

I don’t want universal healthcare to be the only option- I like mine just fine. However, I don’t see a cheaper but not as good government run program to be evil because in the system we have, not having health care will kill you. This country is better than that. [/quote]

Do illegal immigrants have a right to the public option?

I’m not being glib or rhetorical - this question may very well deep-six the entire project (which I disagree with completely).

What do you think?

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Also reading this- http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20090715-711910.html

I’m impressed by both Wal-Mart and Target. I used to give Wal-Mart shit because they wouldn’t let their workers unionize, but now I believe that they don’t need it anyway- Wal-Mart treats them pretty well, and doesn’t go against bills like this (which surprised me).

However, their stuff is still shitty so I ain’t shopping there. But they’re scoring points at least.[/quote]

Ok first off wal-mart is not against unionizing, It just isn’t very effective. Wal-mart treats there employees like shit and make no mistake if this passes many people will lose there job.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

I don’t have a problem with this. The amount of people uninsured is ghastly, and the US ranks 37th in health care in the world. Fuckin’ Costa Rica is ahead of us.

I don’t want universal healthcare to be the only option- I like mine just fine. However, I don’t see a cheaper but not as good government run program to be evil because in the system we have, not having health care will kill you. This country is better than that.

Do illegal immigrants have a right to the public option?

I’m not being glib or rhetorical - this question may very well deep-six the entire project (which I disagree with completely).

What do you think?

[/quote]

No.

They’re not paying into it with taxes… and the country doesn’t need 37 million illegals running into the states to get healthcare when they’re not putting back into it.

[quote]John S. wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Also reading this- http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20090715-711910.html

I’m impressed by both Wal-Mart and Target. I used to give Wal-Mart shit because they wouldn’t let their workers unionize, but now I believe that they don’t need it anyway- Wal-Mart treats them pretty well, and doesn’t go against bills like this (which surprised me).

However, their stuff is still shitty so I ain’t shopping there. But they’re scoring points at least.

Ok first off wal-mart is not against unionizing, It just isn’t very effective. Wal-mart treats there employees like shit and make no mistake if this passes many people will lose there job.[/quote]

I’ve known some people who work there, and they were doing pretty well for themselves. They had stock options and all kinds of other shit. Doesn’t sound terrible to me.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
John S. wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Also reading this- http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20090715-711910.html

I’m impressed by both Wal-Mart and Target. I used to give Wal-Mart shit because they wouldn’t let their workers unionize, but now I believe that they don’t need it anyway- Wal-Mart treats them pretty well, and doesn’t go against bills like this (which surprised me).

However, their stuff is still shitty so I ain’t shopping there. But they’re scoring points at least.

Ok first off wal-mart is not against unionizing, It just isn’t very effective. Wal-mart treats there employees like shit and make no mistake if this passes many people will lose there job.

I’ve known some people who work there, and they were doing pretty well for themselves. They had stock options and all kinds of other shit. Doesn’t sound terrible to me.

[/quote]

I am currently working there while going to school and let me tell you it’s not its all cracked up to be. With the amount of money you make all these options they have never really get touched. They rely heavily on Part time workers in doing so they get off the hook on a lot of there benefits too. If you work full time then yeah it’s not that bad of a place to work, but part time is another story(which makes up 80% of total workers at least in my store).

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

I don’t have a problem with this. The amount of people uninsured is ghastly, and the US ranks 37th in health care in the world. Fuckin’ Costa Rica is ahead of us.

I don’t want universal healthcare to be the only option- I like mine just fine. However, I don’t see a cheaper but not as good government run program to be evil because in the system we have, not having health care will kill you. This country is better than that.

Do illegal immigrants have a right to the public option?

I’m not being glib or rhetorical - this question may very well deep-six the entire project (which I disagree with completely).

What do you think?

[/quote]

This issue is the biggest slap in the face to American Citizens. They get free healthcare, while the rest of us have to pay? Why doesn’t someone file a class action lawsuit against states, claiming that they get benefits that we as citizens don’t.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/07/15/tax-rate-hit-s-level-house-democrats-health-reporm-proposal/

Well that’s how they plan to pay for half of it. The more I hear the more I see this being DOA.

[quote]John S. wrote:

I am currently working there while going to school and let me tell you it’s not its all cracked up to be.[/quote]

No job is supposed to be “all its cracked up to be” while you’re going to school. That’s why you’re going to school.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
John S. wrote:

I am currently working there while going to school and let me tell you it’s not its all cracked up to be.

No job is supposed to be “all its cracked up to be” while you’re going to school. That’s why you’re going to school.[/quote]

I am not saying it should be. But you tried saying they don’t treat them like shit and that is where I stopped you. You where trying to make it sound like it was a good place when its not.

I am going to school because the military will not let me back in.

Now I will spin this into being on topic.

If this bill passes you will see a lot of part time people get fired to make up for the costs. As you can see in this economey that may not be the best option.

[quote]John S. wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
John S. wrote:

I am currently working there while going to school and let me tell you it’s not its all cracked up to be.

No job is supposed to be “all its cracked up to be” while you’re going to school. That’s why you’re going to school.

I am not saying it should be. But you tried saying they don’t treat them like shit and that is where I stopped you. You where trying to make it sound like it was a good place when its not.

I am going to school because the military will not let me back in.
[/quote]

IT’S FUCKING WAL-MART MAN!

I’m not saying that it’s like working for a damn Fortune-500 company, but as far as shitty jobs go, it’s not the worst of them. Believe me, I’ve worked some shit ones in my time.

And no one’s got a gun to your head to stay there. Go find somewhere else to work.

You sound like an optimistic, up beat guy, I’m sure people are knocking your door down to give you jobs.