T Nation

HCG: Subcutaneous Versus Intramuscular Injections


#1

FINALLY I got my HCG prescription pre-authorized and it is due to arrive on Monday. I will be using it three times per week for monotherapy for fertility. As I've said elsewhere, I've been using TRT with no HCG or AI for twelve years. So my doctor has me prescribed 3,000 units three times per week. I have about 100 syringes for IM. But for the last few months I really have grown to like injecting T with tuberculin syringes subcutaneously.

If I am to use HCG IM for the next three quarters of a year (or more), that's a lot of damn holes in muscles. I can deal with it, but it's not what I prefer. I'd rather use TB or even smaller insulin syringes for a water based medication.

Is there a difference?

For me, although it might be "in my head"--anecdotal, that is--subcutaneous syringes give me better subjective indicators for TRT, MAYBE because T metabolizes slower and steadily when done like that. What about HCG?


#2

I’ve been on HCG mono since about Christmas of this year. Sub Q is the only way I’ve don’t it and don’t have any problems. I will post some blood work that im hoping is back today. My doc prescribed 1500IU MWF but im only doing 500IU EOD. E2 is slightly high.

I’ll be in touch.


#3

Tuberculin syringes have more waste/syringe. Insulin syringes have almost no space in the needle wasting less than 0.01mL. Tuberculin ones I’ve used wast 0.05 mL/inj. After a vial of 10mL you may be wasting as much as 10% of it. Also, so many people purchase insulin syringes that the price/unit is about as good as it gets.


#4

that’s a huge dose. That’s more like a high dose of what you might do when coming off of a steroid cycle that didn’t use HCG during…and even then it’s high. how long will doctor have you doing this? IMO, an AI is necessary here, but to be honest I really don’t know what the dose would be, so maybe someone else can help with that.

As for your question, makes no difference if subQ or IM. being water based, I think it works really well for subQ through a small guage needle. I had 27’s before, worked great. The 29’s I have now work even better actually. If you’re staying at that dose I’d look for compatible syringes/needles to put a smaller tip on a 3cc syringe, rather than poking yourself 3x for each dose with the smaller 1/2-1cc (1000iu) slin/tb pins. Of course you may have already figured that out.


#5

[quote]dez6485 wrote:
that’s a huge dose. That’s more like a high dose of what you might do when coming off of a steroid cycle that didn’t use HCG during…and even then it’s high. how long will doctor have you doing this? IMO, an AI is necessary here, but to be honest I really don’t know what the dose would be, so maybe someone else can help with that. [/quote]

We plan on trying for a kid in August, or like, as soon as our wedding ends :). So whenever conception happens after August. My doc told me he needed to be informed six months to a year before the plan. So I might be on this for three quarters of a year or so. After that we can do a maintenance dose with TRT. The dose is high, but I trust him. He has fixed up everyone I’ve sent t to him, including some posters here, and was the chairman of urology at a major hospital here. He has a collage of babies and families on his wall, so I believe he knows what he is doing concerning fertility. He is also very flexible and doesn’t just go by numbers, but symptoms too.

[quote]

As for your question, makes no difference if subQ or IM. being water based, I think it works really well for subQ through a small guage needle. I had 27’s before, worked great. The 29’s I have now work even better actually. If you’re staying at that dose I’d look for compatible syringes/needles to put a smaller tip on a 3cc syringe, rather than poking yourself 3x for each dose with the smaller 1/2-1cc (1000iu) slin/tb pins. Of course you may have already figured that out. [/quote]

Thanks for this.


#6

[quote]C27 H40 O3 wrote:
Tuberculin syringes have more waste/syringe. Insulin syringes have almost no space in the needle wasting less than 0.01mL. Tuberculin ones I’ve used wast 0.05 mL/inj. After a vial of 10mL you may be wasting as much as 10% of it. Also, so many people purchase insulin syringes that the price/unit is about as good as it gets.[/quote]

I found it impossible to load 1/2 ml T cyp into an insulin syringe.


#7

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]C27 H40 O3 wrote:
Tuberculin syringes have more waste/syringe. Insulin syringes have almost no space in the needle wasting less than 0.01mL. Tuberculin ones I’ve used wast 0.05 mL/inj. After a vial of 10mL you may be wasting as much as 10% of it. Also, so many people purchase insulin syringes that the price/unit is about as good as it gets.[/quote]

I found it impossible to load 1/2 ml T cyp into an insulin syringe. [/quote]

I just dont understand this, We are using the same test (pfizer) and i have zero issues with a 1/2" 29ga 0.5CC slin pins. Loads in maybe 30 seconds tops.


#8

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]C27 H40 O3 wrote:
Tuberculin syringes have more waste/syringe. Insulin syringes have almost no space in the needle wasting less than 0.01mL. Tuberculin ones I’ve used wast 0.05 mL/inj. After a vial of 10mL you may be wasting as much as 10% of it. Also, so many people purchase insulin syringes that the price/unit is about as good as it gets.[/quote]

I found it impossible to load 1/2 ml T cyp into an insulin syringe. [/quote]

It definitely takes longer through an insulin syringe, but it’s possible, just requires some patience.

I use 30g insulin needles. I warm the oil before drawing by setting it near my heater for a couple of minutes, which seems to help. Then it takes a few minutes for me to draw up the testosterone. It’s not as efficient as a tuberculin needle in terms of time, but there is zero waste. The waste didn’t used to bother me, but now that I inject twice per week I’m a little more cognizant of how much is left in the syringe afterwards.


#9

I pull back the plunger all the way and it tends to stay by itself. I wait til the low pressure air is replaced by t-Cyp and then get rid of the tiny bubble left on top. Takes about 1min. It’s so easy to do I can hold the vial and syringe with one hand and administer my hCG with the other flawlessly.


#10

for what it’s worth, as far as my T Cyp, I have no issues with pinning it with a 29ga 1/2" TB syringe. it’s shit to draw with, but easy as hell to backfill. I don’t know if these vary by brand, but there is virtually zero waste in the needle tip as well. the 27’s I had before (which had removeable needles) I realized about .05ml was getting wasted in the tip, aka 10mg/shot= 20mg/wk.

No way I’m going to waste this precious liquid if I don’t have to, so I did a little searching and came to the conclusion that you can pull a little extra air in, let the bubble float up to the plunger, then the last thing to go through the needle is that air bubble- not nearly enough to be dangerous, plus I’m obviously not putting it into a vein.

I’ve been switching off lately between just using the 22ga’s I have for draw and pin, and backfilling the 29’s. this morning I just wasn’t feeling that 22, so I backfilled my blast dose (B&C’ing, yes) and it was easy peasy. takes longer, yes, but feels better.


#11

You can use insulin syringes, yes it takes a little longer to load them but not that long. You could always back load them, It’s definitely worth it with what you save from waste. I would be careful with that dose of hcg because you could mess up your receptors.


#12

[quote]Ned wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]C27 H40 O3 wrote:
Tuberculin syringes have more waste/syringe. Insulin syringes have almost no space in the needle wasting less than 0.01mL. Tuberculin ones I’ve used wast 0.05 mL/inj. After a vial of 10mL you may be wasting as much as 10% of it. Also, so many people purchase insulin syringes that the price/unit is about as good as it gets.[/quote]

I found it impossible to load 1/2 ml T cyp into an insulin syringe. [/quote]

I just dont understand this, We are using the same test (pfizer) and i have zero issues with a 1/2" 29ga 0.5CC slin pins. Loads in maybe 30 seconds tops. [/quote]

When I tried it with my insulin syringes, a bit went in and with a bit of smooth pushing and pulling (this ALWAYS works with my IM needles), nothing happened, or if it were to happen, was going to take a long time. I might try again. Of course for HCG, an insulin syringe will present no problem.


#13

I’ve never been concerned about slight waste with tuberculin or IM syringes. I respond pretty good to 100 mg of T per week, twice testing in the 700s and 800s on the fifth or sixth day after an injection. I never used supplemental HCG or an AI and I feel better with T cyp, even though I tested with the same numbers with Testim and Androgel. Libido is FAR better with injections for me.


#14

[quote]ironman4850 wrote:
You can use insulin syringes, yes it takes a little longer to load them but not that long. You could always back load them, It’s definitely worth it with what you save from waste. I would be careful with that dose of hcg because you could mess up your receptors.[/quote]

I will be discussing this issue with my doc when I see him in the first week of March. He is flexible and understanding and he knows I am VERY concerned with health, fitness, and physique. Like I said, I trust the guy and have been with him since 2002.


#15

why even discuss it with doc? as long as you’re doing the prescribed dose, I’d imagine he doesn’t care what size needle you use to put it in. do what’s best for you. unless it’s an issue with only being able to get syringes with prescription?


#16

I meant concern with 9000 IU of HCG per week and the possible high estradiol and LH receptor degeneration people speak of.


#17

yes that’s a high dose, about double what I’ve seen on a weekly basis for your situation, and the duration seems quite long as well. nevertheless, if you have a good doc, you have a good doc. I would say that an AI is non-negotiable. it’s just too easy a step to take, to not do it.


#18

[quote]dez6485 wrote:
yes that’s a high dose, about double what I’ve seen on a weekly basis for your situation, and the duration seems quite long as well. nevertheless, if you have a good doc, you have a good doc. I would say that an AI is non-negotiable. it’s just too easy a step to take, to not do it.[/quote]

Right.

As for syringes, a ten-pack of insulin syringes can be bought without a prescription in NYC for obvious reason.


#19

cool. from what I gather, it seems like there are three different (legal) ways of getting them, varying by state law:

  1. OTC, no prescription
  2. prescription for exact syringes
  3. prescription for a medication that uses syringes

I thought it was either 1 or 2, but it seems that my local pharmacies will sell them to me without prescription as long as they are dispensing my prescription Test