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HCG required for Test E/Tbol Cycle?


#1

Weeks 1 - 10(/12) - Test E 600mg
Weeks 1 - 6 - Tbol 60mg Every day

PCT
2 Weeks after last pin
Nolva - 40/40/20/20
Clomid - 100 First day 50/50/50/25

Support
Aromasin (12.5mg EOD) along with milk thistle and Liv52

Would you guys recommend I add HCG to the cycle to help with recovery and maintenance of mass? If so, would 250iu twice a week be sufficient?


#2

how old are you ? stats?

Drop the liver supports and use TUDCA its the best for any oral IMO, i ran it with superdrol before 4-5 weeks.

TUDCA is available over the counter and is an absolute necessity for use with oral AAS. it prevents cholestasis and helps keep your cholesterol and blood pressure in check. NAC, liv52, and milk thistle are all fine and dandy, but they won’t prevent your liver from shitting the bed if it can’t handle the toxicity of orals. I can tell you it works fine as i ran superdrol for 4 weeks and did not experience much lethargy until the end and superdrol is considered one of the most toxic.

Additionally, unless you have breast cancer i do not think you should run nolva with clomid especially 100 for clomid it will really fuck up your mood, you should do some more research about PCT for a short cycle like yours Nolva is all thats needed for beginners and some AI incase you get nipple pain. HCG is really only used for people that use harsh compounds like tren or deca its mostly used to kickstart your testicles.


#3

Your cycle is fine as is. Nice, direct, basic, effective. Keep milk thistle and Liv52 in.

HCG is not a requirement but may help. I would basically run it 4 weeks or so, starting the week after you stop pinning. Basically it will start a week earlier than PCT and coincide with the first 3 weeks of PCT. 250 iu 3x a week is probably enough.

EDIT–I am leaving my original post so that people know what I am changing. I’d revise my HCG recommendation to start last week or 2 of cycle and stop a couple days ahead of time you start SERMs and would recommend starting SERMS a little later–at the dose of 600mg/week that is (600 > 300 > 150 > 75) about 3 weeks after the last pin. So about 4 weeks HCG stopping a few days before starting SERMs.

I apologize, I was not thinking clearly at the time I wrote this.


#4

Milk Thistle does not help protect the liver against damage from orals. I don’t know what is in Liv52 but nothing compares to TUDCA.

So as Cryptonite said you should get TUDCA. You can keep the other things in there as i doubt they will do any harm but they are useless for protecting the liver against damage from orals.

Adding HCG during the cycle @ 250iu 2 x a week would be great. I recommend and use it @ 250iu mon/wed/fri during cycles.

I would just use one SERM for PCT such as Nolva @ 20mg a day for 6 weeks. Taper your aromasin going into PCT.


#5

Thanks for the reply. It’s been 4 weeks now.
I’m 23, started at 76kg and about 79kg now. BF is ~15/16%, but I store fat mainly on my lower back and ass (lol). So my abs are popping out and my arms are super vascular.
This is my second cycle ever. First was just Test E 500mg a week for 12 weeks. PCT was fake (I believe) and it fucked me up pretty bad.

Tbol pumps are crazy. Hard to do athletic stuff (eg muay thai), but great for bodybuilding.

Thanks for the advice on TUCDA and PCT.

People have recommend combining both nolva and clomid for me which is why that is my plan.
Some have said HCG is a necessity, but I thought as I’m young and healthy I should be able to recover without.


#6

No serious disagreement from me (also see my reply to you in the other thread). I didn’t say anything about TUDCA pro or con, but at 6 weeks given a healthy subject and no drinking/BS I’m not really too concerned about serious liver damage. In general for moderate oral cycles at last <6 weeks is not usually a huge issue–most of the problems I see come from people doing stupid shit while on orals like drinking or doing rec drugs or other crap. It always pays to be more careful than less so, so there’s no downside to TUDCA on top of milk thistle/Liv52


#7

HCG helps. Is it 100% necessary? No. But it helps significantly so it is usually a good idea. Why suffer more than you have to?


#8

For the OP mostly,

First find out why you are taking nolva and clomid, for your cycle which is relatively short (10 weeks) and mild compounds, nolva is all you need. Below is a source i found a couple weeks back that can help you understand the difference between both and why you need to be careful.

Here is an article i found on the internet regarding the two compounds.

Nolvadex vs. Clomid for PCT

It seems like everyday questions concerning PCT pop up, and weather one should use either Clomid or nolva or a combo of both. I hope that this article written by BigCat may help to clear up some misconceptions.

While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and nolva to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles, but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment of breast cancer in women, while Clomid is generally considered a fertility aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, Clomid has generally been used as post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.

But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth to have originated because nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and the people selling Clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how Clomid (and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids. After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is lost. So its in everybody’s best interest to bring back natural test as soon as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen, so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That’s basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.

Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than Clomid can in doses of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor, but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron, Viratase or arimidex would (by competing for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to.

This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex. Therefor, when problems such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start 20 mg/day of nolva or 100 mg/day of Clomid straight away, in conjunction with some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen while the Clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away. This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound.

So which one should you use? Well personally, I’d have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of Clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as Clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas Clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.

Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver, while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body, and therefore too should be considered a better choice than Clomid. It will not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use, but will help to contain the problem to a larger degree.

Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring natural test wasn’t enough) is because it’s a lot safer. Not just because it improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn’t have the intrinsic side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that’s mainly because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect the eyesight. Long-term Clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3 in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex.

Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than Clomid, simply because it is stronger. Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try Clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case nolva remains the weapon of choice. It’s a plain fact that there is a high correlation between gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects, or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That’s life, nothing is free.


#9

i think whoever wrote that article didn’t look at SERMs in men, and was looking at their clinical effect on women.

the reason why i believe that, is because SERMs don’t lower total estrogen in men… it typically goes up a little.

also, clomid is pretty strong when it’s used at clinically studied doses for men… which is 25 mg/day. guys take too much, and cause side effects that include desensitization to GNrH, which is counterproductive (i believe the study that showed that used 300 mg/day).

the reason why SERMs can reduce gains is partially due to the fact that they lower IGF-1… this is part of the reason why they’re used in cancer treatments.

IMHO, clomid (25 mg/day) or nolva (20 mg/day) both do a good job of getting the HPTA working again, as long as they’re taken for a long enough time (6-8 weeks).


#10

to my knowledge, this is just theory and SERMs have never been shown to have any significantly deleterious effect on strength and/or muscle gains.


#11

Yeah I kind of remember reading from somewhere(not an article) that IGF-1 reduction was statistically insignificant in men. I may be wrong though.


#12

anecdotally, it just doesn’t seem to matter. I’ve never really noticed myself shrivel up when I use them.

Meadows was talking about SERMs on a radio show a few months back. He’s not a huge fan of using AIs (I know, right? Quite interesting) when he’s cruising on a low dose of test, and uses (and recommends his clients use) nolva instead.


#13

Meadows is old school, man. This was the norm when I started using in 2003. So were dbol + deca cycles. See, I told you it was not my fault!


#14

it’s an old-school practice with a fairly new scientific basis. When you take aromatase down too far you inhibit a major fat burning pathway. Meadows says cruise with nolva but get regular bloodwork and if your E creeps up spend a few weeks on an AI.

I forget sometimes that your ass is a thousand years old. You still PCTing or have you decided to blast and cruise?


#15

Would you even need nolva if E2 is under control? I’m not sure I get the rationale.

My last cycle was 8 months ago and I’m still maintaining my weight. I will probably blast and cruise if my T levels eventually fall below 700.


#16

I guess “under control” would have a slightly different meaning to the usual TRT context in this case. Like, if your E was a bit high then it’s all good because of the nolva, but if it gets too high then that’s bad news and you’ll need the AI.[quote=“dt79, post:15, topic:220639”]
My last cycle was 8 months ago and I’m still maintaining my weight. I will probably blast and cruise if my T levels eventually fall below 700.
[/quote]

well obviously you’re going to lose all your gains because that’s what happens when you stop using steroids. I read it on the internet so it must be true.

I’m going to get bloodwork at the end of the year to see where I’m at. I’m fairly confident everything’ll be ok but I guess you never know.


#17

yeah, depends on which one, but it’s usually a drop of 25% of IGF1 or so…

i think in the case of using them or not using them at the end of a cycle, the answer is obvious that it’s better to use a SERM and having slightly lower IGF1.