T Nation

HCG Questions


#1

hCG Questions:

KSman thanks for all the answers to my PM's.

I got some syringes up in VA when I was there for business(No prescription necessary, unlike Miami, FL) like $2.70 for 10- so twice as much as Sam's Club. Oh and the biggest size they had was #30gauge, .5" 1ml so it took 5 of those to reconstitute the hCG per your instructions for double strong/ half doses - which I am way glad i did.

The needle was not even felt going in my pinched belly fat, but forcing in the liquid was a challenge & uncomfortable. I had difficulty getting it to flow at an even pace and needle kept moving in and out as I tried to get a grip that could move it without just slamming it all in at once. I think I could feel the liquid going between my fat and the skin- is this normal.

For my first dose i did the equivalent of 500iu regular strength hCG dose, with the double strength dose, which equaled 25units on the #30, .5" .5 ml insulin syringe i used.

Ok now my first main question: I have been on TRT for about 1.5 years and this morning, 10 hours after the first injection my balls already seem close to normal and hanging like the old days? Does hCG work that fast?

Also, when I do my next injections, should I let the syringe sit out at room temp a while to warm up? It seems like it would be even more unpleasant to force cold hCG in. Do you just put the mixed hCG vial in the fridge or seal it in some bag/holder?

My Endo, who was very skeptical of the whole hCG with androgel, pointed out that the 2004 JCEM study was only 3 weeks long. So any idea what the long term (years use of low hCG injections) would be?

I will defiantly get some #29 .5" .5ml syringes if that will make injecting more smooth. At least the next injections will only be 12.5ml(Double strength) EOD.

Oh, what if sometimes instead of EOD I do a double dose E4D when I'm away traveling?

LL


#2

The smaller syringe with a smaller piston will inject faster.

Many have done 250iux2/week for a long time. Replacing LH with a dose of HCG that creates the same intratesticular T levels seems to be a non issue.

What are the long term effects of not doing HCG?

Doubling up the first dose makes a lot of sense.

I keep my HCG in the box that it came in and keep the BA water in the same box to keep the other upright.

I load a .5ml syringe and use it for four injections, then discard, cleaning the needle with a swab after injecting. Recap and put back in the paper sleeve and keep that in the fridge as well. The .5ml syringe warms quickly in your hand before injecting. But try a cold injection to see if that really is an issue for you.

This source has fair pricing for syringes:

http://www.calvetsupply.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1298


#3

"I load a .5ml syringe and use it for four injections, then discard, cleaning the needle with a swab after injecting. Recap and put back in the paper sleeve and keep that in the fridge as well. The .5ml syringe warms quickly in your hand before injecting. But try a cold injection to see if that really is an issue for you."

Wow! Thats a fantastic money/time saving tip. Thanks. Along with the only reconstituting the hCG with 5ml water (for half injection fluid) you have some real pearls of wisdom.
I would see that some people would think it would possibly cause infection, but if its working for you I will do it also. So warming up the syringe and reusing doesn't affect the hCG or do you inject cold?

Can you always feel the hCG going injecting in your skin? Maybe it was just really bad because it was my first self injection...
Is there always a lot of injection resistance with a 30 gauge needle?

How soon was it after starting hCG before you noticed anything?

LL


#4

I noticed the effects of HCG quickly as my shrinking balls stopped hurting within days. That pain is something that only a few guys have.

I have only used #29 needles. I use that same size for injecting test cyp .14ml EOD, overfilled to .56ml and used four times. You cannot go finer than #29 to inject oil based T.

I forgot to add, that anyone with AIDS or on immunosuppressive drugs [for organ transplants or RA therapy etc] should not reuse their own needles in this fashion. Otherwise the immune system is there working all the time and with a new needle every time, one is still dragging skin bacterial into the body.

Many diabetics do this syringe re-use and many using insulin pens do not use a new needle-tip for each injection. They are our source of data that demonstrates relative safely.

A nursing study took a group of insulin users and had them stop using alcohol swabs. The study found that there were no increases in antibodies. Some nursing jurisdictions now tell diabetics that using alcohol swabs is not needed. That also makes the use of insulin pens less fussy. The key point here may be that the use of an alcohol swab is not effective anyways.

Never use a used needle to draw up more HCG, test, etc as you do not want to introduce any contamination to that bulk material that can then be used for a duration of a few months. The vial does not have an immune system. Yes there is BA in the test and HCG, but still not something that I am willing to mess with.


#5

"I use that same size for injecting test cyp .14ml EOD, overfilled to .56ml and used four times."

Another great tip. This will make up for the small amount that leaks out the needle/hole as I'm having difficulty injecting it smoothly- wish you had a tip for self-injections- but maybe I just need more practice. The more I lift the finer motor skills like this seem to be lost. Also, do I need to sqirt a small amount each time to make sure there are no bubbles in the syringe?

I forgot all about warming up the syringe for my last injection, as I was expecting it to be as traumatic/awkward as the first and I didn't even notice the cold hCG- so cold hCG seems to be a non-issue for me.

When should my LH? levels be back to normal, that is when should I go in for another Blood Test (month?)

It looks like i will have to start using precautions with the ladies as I have no plans for fatherhood in the near future.

If my T levels don't go up with next Bloodtest I will switch to injections even though they sound worse than the hCG sq injections.

My Blood work from May 2007 was as follows:

Test Total: 226 241-827 ng/dL
SHBG: 17 5-49 nmol/L
Test Free: 65 34-194 pg/ml
Test Free W/B: 135 84-402 ng/dl

Every thing else (No e2 or igf) was in range except:

Urea Nitrogen(BUN) 52 H 7-25 mb/dL

BUN/CReatine 40 H 6-22 (calc)

AST 88 H 10-40 U/L
ALT 61 H 9-60 U/L

He did say something about being concerned about my liver or something( But i guessed it was related to high protein intake or creatine) and that my FreeT "where i get the bang for my buck" was fine and TotalT didn't really matter...

What's your analysis?


#6

FWIW I have autoimmune liver disease (in remission now), and creatine really affected my liver in a bad way. I started a whey supplement that had creatine it it. My liver numbers went crazy. I stopped the supplement, liver numbers returned to prior levels. My doctor say creatine is not good for liver patients.

Creatine is a great supplement and has no side effects for most people. But apparently it can affect the liver of people who have or are succeptible to liver disease,


#7

LiftingLarge - I have a couple of thoughts for you concerning your blood tests.

Next time ask for the E2 to be done. Testosterone and Estradiol work in concert and the ratio of the two is important.

BUN and BUN/Creatinine are usually thought of as indicators of kidney function. I'm on a high protein diet as well and yet my BUN and BUN/Creatinine are well within range, so I would want to make sure they do a complete urinalysis next time as well.

The liver series is Total Protein, Albumin, Globulin, A/G Ratio, Bilirubin, Alkaline Phosphatase, AST and ALT.

Your AST and ALT levels are high, so I would want to discuss this with my doctor and look at the levels of all other indicators. Intense training can affect these levels but I wouldn't brush them off. I'm not trying to alarm you, I just think you should try to find reasons for your abnormal levels.

Dr. John Crisler recommends bloodwork two weeks after starting transdermals or five weeks after starting injections.

I highly recommend that you check out his papers here:

http://www.allthingsmale.com/publications.html


#8

Thanks guys. I'll probably make an apt. in early August and push for all those tests. I had an e2 test that was normal earlier this year and almost had to twist Endo's arm to do that. I'll try again and make sure its the sensitive test this time.

LL


#9

Trick question?

When you are on TRT, your LH production will shutdown and testing LH is silly and a waste of money. If TT and FT levels are up, the LH will be mostly gone.

Edit: typo


#10

"When should my LH? levels be back to normal, that is when should I go in for another Blood Test (month?)

Trick question?

When you are on TRT, your LH production will shutdown and testing LH is silly and a waste of money. It TT and FT levels are up, the LH will be mostly gone. "

Good Catch KSMAN. I mean when should I get tested or how long does it take to make sure the hCG(Which mimics LH?) is working correctly?

Won't the hCG make my balls bigger than they were before TRT? I guess they seem pretty close to normal looking/hanging and my scotum isn't always scrunched, but is that all I need to go by? I don't notice any other changes, extra energy or strength.

LL


#11

250iu SC EOD will typically return the testes to need the state that they were in before TRT. Should not be much different, unless you pituitary was producing very little LH before TRT was started. No reason to expect bigger boys than when you were young.

The testes produce E, thats normal. There is aromatase there too. When you go on TRT and shut down the testes, the E production in the testes mostly stops. When you add HCG, the testes start to make T again, and also E. So adding the HCG creates more E than TRT without HCG. That all makes sense, but all the more reason to get the blood work done to determine E2 levels.

I would not do TRT for a while, then do E2 testing before or soon after starting HCG as your E2 steady state E2 levels are not there yet and the E2 test would not be very representative of what your TRT+HCG are doing.

If you wait 2 months and your libido crashes, then you can tell the doc that you have a symptom and need to be treated with arimidex. Depends on your Doctor. Some Doctors simply don't know or don't care (ignorant or apathetic -same result) and guys find the AI on their own.


#12

Hey KSman, things have been well so far. Can't wait to get new blood test in month or so. Not sure if its the hCG and/or Beta-7 I started using, but my energy & strength gains have been great.

When I reconstitute my next hCG is it okay to use the remaining water from last dose?

Also, Capitalizing on your great idea to only use 5000ml Bwater(instead of 10,000ml)- Why not only use 2500ml and then we could use the same syring for 8 doses(instead of 4) equivilent to 250iu?

What size/capacity needle do you use to reconstitute... the #29 1ml?

LL


#13

Size of needle to recon does not matter, but can be a lot of work. I use one of the 3ml syringes left over from my weekly T injection days.

You can make stronger yet, but accuracy of measurement and partial injections might be an issue. I am happy with my 4 shots per load.

What is beta-7?

Good to hear about the progress. Can't remember the rest of your situation. On AI? Know E2 levels? HCG can increase your E2 levels. Watch for a slump in libido or vitality.

I use the BA water from an earlier does to recon the next. Don't know that I am going to use that BA water for!

I will be traveling later Friday and gone for 9 days. So may not be able to respond to PMs. Access to internet limited or nil.


#14

Your taveling not to Paris are you? I'm leaving on a work trip there this evening as well.

Beta 7 is a Biotest supplement they have a deal on now: http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1647089&cr=supplements

I hate to waste the BA water to, just wanted to make certain it was ok to use after 30-60 in fridge after seal broken.

I'm stuck with 30gauge 1/2 syringes to Reconstitute for now, they seem to bend when going into vial and I worry they may spray the hCG to powerfully, but I guess its working.

I did the androgel post months ago about 20 grams a day better than 10 grams: http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1438453

I can't believe these Florida pharmacies around me keep giving me 4 boxes of 8 pumps, I have like 10 box surplus now- hell maybe I'm confused & I'm suppose to use 2 pumps a week instead of 1? I just slather on 10-12 squirts now when I apply. It seems to not absorb fully anyway. My T-levels last 2 Blood Test were low.

Jan 19 Endocrinologist - Blood work/Pituitary Gland tests: Quest Diagnostics(sent to labs: Miami, Atlanta & Virginia)
IGF-1 248 [106-255 ng/mL]
FSH <0.7 L [1.6-8.0 mIU/mL]
LH <0.2 L [1.5-9.3 mIU/mL]
Prolactin 6.3 [2.0-18.0 ng/mL]
T-4, Free 1.1 [0.8-1.8 ng/dL]
TSH 1.54 [0.4-5.5 mIU/L]
Estradiol 13 [13-54 pg/ml]
Albumin 5.0 [3.7-5.1 g/dL]
SHBG 16 [5-49 nmol/L]
HCG, Total OL Negative [Negative]
Testosterone, Free & Weakly Bound
T, Total 187 L [241-827 ng/dL]

T, FREE 51 [34-194 pg/mL]
T, F&W B 117 [84-402 ng/dL]

&

My Blood work from May 2007 was as follows:

Test Total: 226 241-827 ng/dL
SHBG: 17 5-49 nmol/L
Test Free: 65 34-194 pg/ml
Test Free W/B: 135 84-402 ng/dl

Every thing else (No e2 or igf) was in range except:

Urea Nitrogen(BUN) 52 H 7-25 mb/dL

BUN/CReatine 40 H 6-22 (calc)

AST 88 H 10-40 U/L
ALT 61 H 9-60 U/L

No AI and I assume my nipples will start itching before thats necessary.
I will twist endo's arm again to test E2 levels next Blood test (He seems worried its not appropriate and says insurnace may not cover it...)

Safe travels,

LL


#15

I am a 38 y/o bodybuilder and have been training since 14 y/o. I have been bodybuilding without the use of steroids for about 14 years. I did use them in my late teen, early twenties.

I have I recently had my hormone levels checked. My testosterone and free test came back in the low normal range (very low normal range).

My doctor initally recommended started with DHEA (that was below normal) and has seen a lot of men have great results with HCG. I have started 25mg of DHEA twice a day and doing HCG 2500 USP units twice a week and will do this for two months. Then I will do another blood test to check out my t-levels.

I am hoping to get some feedback from others who are using this therapy (specifically HCG) and I will report mine.

Thanks,
Mark


#16

If the testes work well and only lacked LH, then HCG can work, but the results will be modest.

5000iu of HCG is insane. This will down regulate the LH receptors in the testes and that is damage. 250iu SQ EOD maintains baseline testicular fucntion in young normal males who are LH shutdown with 200mg test ester per week.

You must not do 5000iu per week.

IM injections are not need, SC/SQ work just as well.

Print this for your doc:

http://dspace.hsl.washington.edu/dspace/bitstream/2012/52/1/JCEM_2005_Low_Dose_Human.pdf


#17

I am not going to pretend I am an expert on this because I am not. I am definitely in the learning phase. So bear with me.

I read your article and the study is about cases where the groups had "induced gonadotropin suppression" and the affects of hcg therapy on ITT (intratesticular testosterone). I can see how some things would apply but there seems to be many thoughts about this from other "experts".

KSman wrote:
5000iu of HCG is insaine

There seems to some inconsistency in the study of HCG regarding this. For example visit the following:
http://www.healthtouch.com/bin/EContent_HT/drugShowLfts.asp?fname=usp0248.htm&title=hCG&cid=HT

They quote "For treating men with problems related to low levels of male hormones:
Adults�??1000 to 4000 Units injected into the muscle two to three times a week".

I am not using testosterone of any kind. I am just trying to see if I can get my levels up. There does seem to be a lot of different suggestions reagarding this issue.

Thank you for the feedback and I look forward to receiving and sending more feed back about this topic.

Mark


#18

250iu is known to be enough to replace lost LH. It is also known that too much down regulates LH receptors. You can find a lot of info on www that will contradict this. And bad info on the web does not go away. Down regulation of LH receptors will not go away either. Part of the problem is a diagnostic protocol where a large dose of LH can be given, then blood work done to see if the testes are able to respond. Then some made the assumption that those provocative doses were safe long term.... not.