T Nation

HCG or Not: What's the Right Answer?


#1

I’m just curious if there is any one on this form that is on TRT but not taking hCG. I realize that it’s a common protocol for TRT clinics and most doctors because it has tremendous benefits such as backfilling other hormonal pathways that are cut off by testosterone replacement.

However, there is also a large body of doctors who believe that you should not send your body conflicting signals – such as shutting down production from supplemental Testosterone while simultaneously giving it the signal to produce testosterone from the hCG.

The old school, 80’s lifter in me finds taking T and HCG together hard to imagine. I had a stint of HCG mono therapy a few months ago - and it sure as hell raised my Testosterone - but I felt like shit for several weeks while I was dialing in the protocol -and my E2 was over 60 despite taking Arimidex.
I’m on Androgel only right now and feeling fine but only 3 weeks in. My doc is suggesting it but its hard to get and expensive. Is it truly necessary?. Will I be causing damage to my Testes from long-term shutdown if I don’t?
Thanks.


#2

I have nothing to add, but I am thinking of going back on TRT and my doc will not prescribe HCG, so I would be interested to know if anyone else has had success without using HCG


#3

I’ve been on some form of TRT for over 10 years. From compounded creams, to bio-identical hormones, implanted pellets, and finally on injectable Test Eth. I’ve never taken HCG. None of my docs even mentioned it. The first two did little to control E2 much less care about HCG. Finally, I’m self administering my own TRT and using Adex for E2 control. I havent had any negative side effects that I’m aware of. My balls may have shrunk some over the years but, hell I never was into measuring my own scrotal circumference! They still swing low when its hot and tuck when its cold. My wife can still feel them slapping her ass when we screw and has never mentioned that they were large, small,or anyting else.

Anything else you want to know?


#4

Thanks bro. What about ancillaries like DHEA, pregnenalone, etc? Do you take any of those? Also, how do like the Test E compared with the other protocols?


#5

That is very scattered. Test E is not a protocol. All test esters yield bio-identical testosterone as the ester groups are removed. No differences other than some yield more or less T because of differing weights of ester groups.

DHEA and preg are simply other issues that are clearly outside of main TRT scope. You can test preg and DHEA-S and optimize as you wish.


#6

As for hCG with TRT. It is really all about how much your testes shrink and/or ache and how you feel about that. Many get small testes and scrotum pulled up tight like a prepubescent boy. And fertility can be lost. A few do not have the shrinkage that most experience. Wait and see and do as you wish.

The right answer is what is right for you.[quote=“jimgainz, post:1, topic:226419”]
However, there is also a large body of doctors who believe that you should not send your body conflicting signals – such as shutting down production from supplemental Testosterone while simultaneously giving it the signal to produce testosterone from the hCG.
[/quote]

That is a crock of shit that you should be ashamed to be repeating.


#7

No I do not.

I do blast from time to time, Tren, Anavar, and Masteron are some of the blasts I have done.


#8

I have been on TRT about 7 months or so. Without HCG at the beginning, then on it and then I took a break and now I am back on it. For me, I notice with HCG my boys are definately larger and hang lower. Without HCG, they stayed tucked in.
Also, I’m going to go there, semen volume and consistency is better. I know that the sperm created in your testes is a small part of the ejaculate but perhaps having the sperm pushes your body to make more seminal fluid. May not be a big deal for some, but more ejaculate equals a stronger and longer orgasm.
Finally, I was getting some wicked dry skin without HCG, like scratching until I bleed dry. Might be a coincidence but on HCG my skin feels better.


#9

I was only repeating what two docs told me personally and what I have also read elsewhere. Im not trying to flame HCG - just get the answer to a very debatable topic. I think it’s fair to say that most mainstream docs do not prescribe HCG - but this could be out of ignorance.


#10

We do see that often doctors say things that are rubbish. About at useful as broscience.


#11

FWIW - my new protocol just included hcg at 350 IU EOD and I feel the positive effects already. big difference actually. There is a great video on Excel Male which explains all of the other hormones pathways (Progesterone / pregnenalone, and others) that are ‘restored’ when using HCG. Also other published posts and studies show no desensitising at the normal doses we run (up to 500 IU EOD).


#12

Some guys will run into excessive E2 levels with higher dosing.
"but I felt like shit for several weeks while I was dialing in the protocol -and my E2 was over 60 despite taking Arimidex. "

With TRT, there is no point in using higher doses to create more testicular testosterone, as one can do that cheaper with more injected T. In most cases 250iu SC EOD is sufficient.

hCG is expensive. [When I started TRT 11 years ago, hCG was ~$17 for 10,000iu.]


#13

Good info. I wound up feeling very good on HCG 500 IU and adding a little Androgel - but to your point - E2 was very hard to control and it’s better to lower HCG and Increase the Exogenous T.

I was looking over my logs from my first bout of TRT and I did have very bad anxiety. I have no such issues now so the only difference I can account for was the first time I was already having massive anxiety from the heavy SERM doses I was taking - and I believe this was the cause as they were working out of my system.


#14

Any progress?


#15

Hi there – perfect timing – I was actually going to be posting back with some new blood work later this week when they come in.

The hCG has been working extremely well for me. I’m doing 300 IU EOD plus Arimidex (.5mg E3D) and 80g of Androgel daily.

I also take 50 mg DHEA.

As Soon as I added the HCG and upped the testosterone gel I really started to feel better. Also I had no anxiety at all – which proves that my last bout was really just from all of those damn Serms leaving my system.

Haven’t felt this good in 15 years. Anxious to see what the blood test shows – so I will post those back within a week or so

On a sidenote – most of my low thyroid symptoms have been substantially mitigated. I was doing some research and it seems that hCG may act like a Thyroid agonist -could be the reason - but either way - feeling Much better with higher Test and HCG.


#16

Thyroid and feeling better. Do not guess, check body temps!

Great progress. Now that you are injecting hCG with an insulin needle, stop the gel and inject T SC with #29 1/2" 0.5ml insulin syringe, 43mg E3D. Not both in one syringe.

The point of gels is to make profits and avoid the horrors of having a patient using a syringe.

Injected T is least cost, and 100% absorbed, cannot be washed or sweated off.


#17

Thanks. I’ll speak to my doc about the shots.
He said gels were better, if one absorbs them, since it mimics the natural rythm plus DHT from the gels is better for libido. I see the pros and cons of each. By the way - I did take a smidge of Test E this week as a test (like 35 mgs worth) and felt fantastic

By the way - are you and the others having good success with Subq injections over IM consistently? And lastly, do 29g needles work for oil-based products? I was thinking 27 at the highest.


#18

I use a 29g, .5ml, 1/2" and its fine, load time is a little slow but inject time is fine.