T Nation

HCG Only as PCT?


This my first cycle. I have a decade of Bodybuilding experience and I know this is not something to do with when it comes to take juice. I did my homework and researched over 6 months. From being ignored by many people to getting really good advices, and from reading posts. But again when it comes to experience = 0. So here I come to ask for the honest advice from the most experienced people been on Juice. Following is the structure of my cycle.

week 1- front load 1000 test start the deca at 300-400 mg
week 2-8 500-750 test/ 300 -400 deca or primobolon.
week 9 500-750 test/ 400 equipoise (this will harden any bloat, keep you vascular)
week 10 - 16 500-750 test/ 400 eqipoise

whatâ??s missing? Yes you are right, there is not PCT, and that is why I am here for. First I thought that I should take Tamioxifen for 4 weeks after 2 weeks of my last Test-E shot (40/40/20/20). Then I thought for further precautions I should also include ADEX of .5mg EOD so that I do not get any sides and or bloating, and also take HCG 500uis ever week during the cycle. But taking all that during the cycle will suppress my gains. I was told and researched as well that I should concentrate on juice during cycle since using any anti-estrogenâ??s can suppress my gains. So I dropped that part. Now when it comes to PCT, I have couple of questions raising in my mind;

Do I even need any Anti-estrogen since I do not even know that how will I react to my first cycle; also am I even prone to sides?
all it does is confuse your endocrine system and trick it into doing something, when if you do it properly your body will do it on its own with just hcg. If I dont get the sides and difficulties producing your own testosterone than let the body do it... the answer is not always take more drugs!!!! the body is an amazing machine perfectly equipped with everything it needs to remain stable. If you do a smart cycle you will have no problems, if you start abusing and taking way too much juice than you will have problems that need drugs to fix.

This is what I think to run my HCG:

I will start it about 1 week before my last shot total of 8 shots (2500 ui) EOD, tht will make the pct tht much easier when I take a break and the balls will be ready to start producing again once I take the last shot. I do not think first cycle would make me all that sick or mess me up for life? All i would do is get the hcg rolling like 2 weeks before my last shot and continue it till its all gone (total amount 15,000 uis)

As for the nolva, again only need tht in extreme cases of prolactin based gyno,something i wont get on test and deca... prolactin based gyno is caused by dht based steroids like , trenbolone, tren ace, masteron..ect.. all stuff I am not taking, it is a estrogen blocker tht centers around the specific strain of estrogen the causes nipple problems in women.. again nothing i will need unless I am running a deep tren cycle... and I wont be doing tht for quite some time if ever...i have my hcg,ai and TAM (Nolva) on hand if i need it. I have the antidites already if I start getting heavy sides, than I will take the antidote, very simple. If I keep my bloodlevels steady I will get little or no sides, if I mess up the injection days all the time and keep increasing doses than I will get more sides... sides only come when your blood levels rise and drop. keep them even and its smooth sailing...

All right so above is what I think is right according to some really mature and experienced users who have been on Juice for more than 10 â?? 15 â?? 20 years as well. Over here I need some true advice, opinion on what I am doing is right or not. Want them to understand my post and then answer them with facts of what you have! Even tho I am not experienced with the juice yet but please realize the density of research I did and information I put it in this article. Thank you.


Where did you get this idea that AI or Anti-E's will suppress your gains? I hate to break it to you, but out-of-control estrogen will DEFINITELY hurt your gains. Estrogen is far and away a more powerful hormone than test, particularly for men, and it competes for the same receptors. If you're estrogen-dominant, no matter how much test you have, all those lovely effects you're looking for from the test will be greatly diminished.

And injecting a gram of testosterone into your body doesn't confuse your endocrine system? Your "natural balance" theory goes out the window the second you introduce an exogenous hormone. You are creating an artificial imbalance, why wouldn't you need artificial means to correct it?

You NEED to have an AI on hand, especially for a first cycle where you have no clue how much you're going to aromatize. Remember that gyno is permanent. Estrogen is toxic to all things man. While you need some, you have to keep it in check.


I forgot to look at the poster's name the first time I looked at this....

I sent you a PM on that other site already addressing this post of nonsense. I laid out everything for you and then you come here and post something that makes it seem like you completely ignored EVERYTHING i told you over the past MONTH.

HCG is suppressive to your own LH so it is best used during cycle when you're suppressed anyway, but keeps the testes in shape for an easier return post cycle to natural production.

Nolva does nothing for prolactin induced gyno - dopamine agonists (caber, bromo, prami) affect heightened prolactin. And while there are anecdotal accounts of trenbolone causing prolactin issues, chemically it shouldn't and doesn't for a number of people as well.

Use Clomid post cycle if you want LH/FSH stimulation.

There is no reason not to use an AI on cycle, ESPECIALLY your first cycle. Stable blood levels doesn't mean testosterone won't aromatize - more testosterone = more aromatization = more estrogen.

Again, that cycle is retarded. You were worried about running a 10 week, 500mg test cycle when we first spoke and now your'e running this bullshit? 8 weeks of those compounds will do little for you. And again its your first cycle, just use testosterone for 12 weeks. You'll grow plenty.


My sincerest Apologies.... and thank you for the replies...


I agree with most of this post except for the part where you say that no AI will limit gains. I dont think that's true. In fact most people do say the exact opposite. From an aesthetics standpoint you probably have a valid point, but from a pure tissue growth point of view, elevated estrogen is not a bad thing.

I agree it is best for a first timer to use an AI at some point to learn how he reacts to it. For sure have it even if never needed.


So AI does limit gains? is that what you mean?


IMHO and from first hand experience, my Arimidex limited my gains somewhat. But I chose the lean look instead of the water head. Next time I will not taken Adex as prevention, but rather when issues (bloat, gyno) start appearing.


It can. Depends on quite a few things. No concrete answer to such a general question.


Interesting, I was not aware of this. Obviously if we're talking about "gains" purely in terms of weight/size, letting E2 remain high will further this since we're going to put on more water and probably more fat than if we'd kept E2 in check. My question now is, will an AI limit actual muscle growth as well, compared to letting E2 do its thing? That would clearly change the equation. I would still lean towards "dryer, leaner" gains even if it compromises the final result to some extent, as I'm not planning to cut for a long long time but also don't want to turn into a lardass for the sake of sheer size. Then again, I'm naturally a pretty lanky guy so maybe the fat gain wouldn't be so much.