HCG / Nolvadex (changed to Clomid) Restart Attempt

Pharma / TRT Testosterone Replacement
22

Just an update:

Nearing the end of HCG portion of the restart. Libido is as strong as ever, though “completion” is “without passion” (this is common with low estrogen). Speaking of low E - I decided to up my dose to 400 IU every other day thinking it would raise T further, and therefore raise E2 since mine was low. Joint pain has thus reduced significantly, but swelling in hand increased a bit. Strange. I’ll know if this is HCG related when I stop the HCG in a week or so.

Beginning 2nd portion of restart (Nolvadex) probably mid week next week. I am confident my T levels are now above 456 (as per last test). Curious where Estrogen landed though. Will do a T/E2 blood test on the last day of HCG just to document where it got me after 4-5 weeks.

23

Doing my last HCG injection tomorrow. Went back to 250 IU as 400 didn’t give me any increase in libido or vitality whatsoever, and the aching/swelling joints seemed to get worse.

Libido is pretty much “normal” I would say. Kind of cool to know its “all me”. I don’t feel any strong surges of sex drive or anything. My “recovery” period (for actually NEEDING it) is still around 2-3 days.

I’ll be running Total Testosterone and Estradiol Sensitive probably Friday morning just to see where 5-6 weeks of HCG got me. Then starting the Nolvadex Friday afternoon to begin that phase of the restart. I was at 456 T levels halfway through this and I would say Im maybe at 500? 550? Maybe still 450? Really difficult to tell. Estrogen is still lower than desirable though I think.

Will update here on Monday with results.

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When you do labs you will still be on your normal hCG?

25

Sorry I wrote that wrong.

I did last HCG injection this morning. I will run Testosterone/Estradiol tomorrow morning. I picture that the “mid-way point between injections”. 24 hours. As next injection would have been 48 hours later.

So I figure that’s a good time to do my final test to see where HCG got me after 5.5 weeks.

That same day (Thursday / tomorrow) after I get blood drawn, I’ll begin the SERM (Nolvadex).

Figure no point in waiting till Friday on that.

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@KSman Without wasting too much money - are there any other tests I should get which would give a hint into whether im seeing good results towards a “restart” ?

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Since Im using this thread as a “journal” of sorts - also wanted to comment:

Exactly 10 hours after injection my libido goes pretty high. I injected today at about 9 or 10 am and at 7:30 i started talking like a sailor to my girlfriend. Got her all (pleasantly) surprised as I am typically captain “who gives a shit” when it comes to sex. Also she noted that my face turns a little red / flushing at around this time too. Wonder if there’s some vasodilation effects. Not trying to be too explicit here, but - we’re all guys so - you know that feeling of tingling / movement in the boys? Kind of an electrical pleasurable feeling that you used to get in college? That feeling you NEVER get with androgel ? I get that on HCG. Usually for the evening of the injection. Next day most of this lingers a little first half of day then fades.

Going to miss this if Nolvadex doesn’t boost my libido too. Heard nothing but stories of ruined libido on it, so im not looking forward to the next 5 weeks.

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Just another update. I am no longer comfortable using Nolvadex as it has significant carcinogenic risks associated with it. I realize some here may disagree with that assessment, but the studies are out there, and there have been numerous FDA warnings.

So now I have exactly 24 hours to figure out my alternate method. Unfortunately Clomid also has carcinogenic effects, though apparently a little less than Nolva. And I took Clomid 6mg for nearly a year (great!). So I am not sure I want to add to that at all.

Guys are talking about taking “tore” and “rolax” (Fareston and Evista) as alternatives, but I don’t know anything about them.

I am REALLY doing well testosterone-wise on HCG alone. Can’t I just stop taking it and see if I keep chugging along naturally now?

I don’t know what to do. @KSman

[quote]The most significant findings of the chronic toxicity study were the confirmation of the potent hepatocarcinogenicity of tamoxifen, and the lack of any carcinogenic activity of toremifene under the condi- tions of 12-month daily exposure at high dose in female rats.

Tamoxi- fen-induced liver tumors were multiple and aggressive, leaving little normal tissue remaining by 15 months. Based additionally on clinical and necropsy observations, there was progression of the tamoxifen- induced liver tumors during the treatment-free period. In addition, the main cause of unscheduled death in tamoxifen-treated groups was liver neoplasia. The present report provides evidence, in compliance with GLP standards and in test groups of adequate size, for a major difference in the toxicology of these 2 drugs. The tamoxifen results concur with those from 2 other studies, which demonstrated liver tumors using a similar schedule of administration in Sprague-Dawley rats, but including a higher dose level (19, 20). Consistent with its hepatocarcinogenicity, tamoxifen induced an increased incidence of foci of hepatocellular alteration as early as 3 months in our sequential study. Foci have been established as the precursors of liver neoplasms, and their induction is predictive of carcinogenic potential (39), as in this case.

In striking contrast to tamoxifen, toremifene was not only lacking in hepatocarcinogenic activity at daily doses ranging from 11 to 48 mg/kg but, in addition, this drug reduced the incidence of altered liver cell loci at the various interim sacrifice stages. This inhibitory effect on the development of liver foci was evident at 3 months using GST-P immunoreactivity and at 12 months by conventional H&E staining. The main type of focus suppressed by toremifene was the type des- ignated as having a tigroid pattern of staining (28). [/quote]

Going to head down to Tijuana again and see if I can find some of this toremifene. If I can’t maybe I’ll just do 6mg Clomid again for awhile. Not going near Nolvadex.

(read all the way to the bottom. there’s one naysayer in the thread, but the overall consensus is stay away from it)

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11 and 22mg/kg dosing…

If you weigh 165lbs, 75 KG, that would be a dose of 1650mg or 3300mg
When all that you would need is 10mg/day

And note that injected dosing probably spikes and hits the liver with far more impact that oral dosing.

You need to have some perspective.

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If I can take something that was shown in studies to have absolutely no similar effects towards liver cancer, why would I take the one that does? Regardless of dose? It’s just common sense. Sticking with the toremifene.

31

Unfortunately getting a script for Toremifene isn’t easy, and the price is apparently $1,200 through the pharmacy. Insane. I hopped down to Tijuana and bought some of the Clomid they sell. Hate taking this crap because I know after 4-5 days I am going to be physically miserable. And even Clomid is associated with cancers. So this sucks. But I did order some Toremifene online and it arrived today. Only $69. Wonder how they’re able to get it for basically $30 because that’s got to be their price if they are selling it for $69. Makes me wonder if its just Nolvadex to be honest…

Anyways, first day I did 25mg of Clomid. Didn’t have any effects. Day two I took nothing (trying the “EOD” methodology described in the restart sticky). Clomid has a 6 day half life so taking it even “every other day” may not be necessary but hey.

So on the third day I took another 25mg (was feeling bold). By about 6pm I was a raging monster of sexual godliness. My girlfriend came over and I could not stop having sex with her. It was insane. We went at least an hour and a half, and if it weren’t for the negative effects of friction, I would have kept going for another two hours, easily. It was just amazing feeling like I did back in college. But I am fully aware of the “honeymoon phase” when you start these meds. You get it with every one of them. Start clomid? The first week is goin to be fucking amazing. Start androgel? Get ready for an amazing first week. Going with HCG? The first week you’ll feel great. Its week two where everything starts to suck.

Now that the Toremifene is here, I may just do 60mg of that next, and stop the Clomid. G*d I hate taking something that is mailed to me from some dudes on the internet for $69 when it costs $1200 at the pharmacy. Seems so sketchy. Who knows what I’m putting in my body. But its the website everyone praises all over the forums. The one with the Lion logo.

I did Testosterone and Estrogen test the day after my last day of HCG. Results still pending. No doubt my T is up right now though. Its insane… love it. Wish I could bottle this feeling and keep it forever.

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@KSman

if one WERE to do Clomid on this restart, what dose would you recommend? And I assume “EOD” ?

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I can only point you back to the HPTA restart thread. It is a sketch that covers principles and options. You can paint in the details yourself.

I am happy for your recent improvement. If your GF in hiding or chasing you?

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@ksman

She’s latin (south american) so if she doesn’t get it multiple times a day she’s not satisfied. Its been difficult lol … My first days on Clomid were spectacular of course. Now it’s leveled out.

I am doing 25mg every other day, which I absolutely could NOT tolerate daily. (I did clomid before). I get a hot flash on the day of the dose sometimes, but that’s about it. I am going to drop to 12.5mg EOD after this week either way. I know that this dose got my LH / FSH plenty working again in the past.

Even though you didnt want to tell me the dose, I am assuming that as long as Clomid is getting me to an upper-normal LH FSH range, then I have myself in the right place for the best possible outcome with a restart? Would that be your criteria?

35

My criteria is to avoid inducing high E2 production inside the testes when SERM dose pushes LH/FSH too high [or hCG doses are too high]. One’s response to a SERM is sometimes not predicable as the top end of one’s HPTA might have problems. I have seen problems with 25mg ED and 12.5mg typically goes well.

36

Wait, you want to INDUCE high estrogen WHEN LH and FSH are too high from the SERM?

Can you rephrase this? I don’t understand.

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Fixed: That was my criteria for too high. Definitely was a bad statement on my part.

38

Got it. So is it accurate to say that as long as LH and FSH are in range, one can assume that the estrogen in the testes (and maybe brain and other areas where clomid raises estrogen) would also be at an acceptable level?

Therefore monitoring your LH and FSH and keeping them from going “HIGH” would be the best way to know your “optimal dose” of Clomid?

39

Yes, but I would monitor LH, FSH, E2, TT, FT.

40

Thought experiment for ya:

Let’s say at a dose of 12.5mg I am getting a testosterone level of about 700 (nice number I would love to have forever after finishing my restart), but my LH and FSH are high. This indicates I am taking too much Clomid, and I would reduce my dose.

But at my new dose (lets say 6mg), my testosterone levels are only at about 480 (insufficient in my opinion, for long term). However my LH and FSH would now be in proper range, which indicates I’m taking the right dose of Clomid.

If I were to stick with the lowered dose, and the “in range” LH/FSH … am I basically dooming myself to a 480 testosterone level after the restart?

Or if the restart is successful, one might expect to see their T levels RISE after completing Clomid?

In other words, is there maybe some benefit to basing Clomid dose on your target testosterone level instead? Maybe its smarter for me to dose my clomid at the T level I am hoping to maintain (700). Because that’s where I’d been pushing my system to for 4-5 weeks.

Make sense?

I guess it all depends what happens after you finish Clomid. If successful, do you only stay at the T level you pushed yourself to while on Clomid? Or does it tend to kickstart and go up?

41

If LH/FSH are high on the SERM, when you stop that the testes see a drop in LH/FSH and how to expect the testes and T to react to that down signal?

If LH/FSH are high, the LH receptors might get desensitized in some cases.